Does it make someone a LGBTQ ally if they wear the pride lanyard but object when a transgender person uses their restroom ?

[thecatmother]

In my workplace we are very open and inclusive and many colleagues chose to wear their IDs on the Pride lanyards and are very active participants in all the Pride related events.
So far so peaceful, or so I thought, we had a new colleague joining recently, it is a lady who is transitioning from being born a man. She is very polite and just gets on with her work and day. I wasn't surprised to see her using the Ladies, unfortunately a number of my colleagues have formed an opinion about that. The management has been supporting the new colleague, and they held "conversations " with the complaining parties.
However, those people are still wearing their Pride lanyards, I can't get my head around that. The lanyards are purely on volunteer basis, we have generic ones. I generally wonder whether they actually realise that being an ally is not about getting drunk on Pride , but actually to be supportive to the people of LGBTQ.

It shouldn't be considered in regard to one gentle transwoman.

Well quite.

Dd and friends were mostly ok with the idea of their year’s androgynous,dreamy, gentle long-haired boy transitioning; not so much with the idea of the draggle-haired smelly creep from year 10 doing the same.

It’s much clearer to draw the lines between sexes than within one.

@NiceGerbil

IfIWere -good additions!

I live in London and in reality the space cost etc of 3rd spaces means it's not going to happen.

In practice loads of female facilities have been relabeled mixed sex and the gents is still the gents.

EG my tube station had 2 ladies cubicles, now unisex. Accessible one toilet was always unisex. Gents is the gents with apparently urinals and 2 cubicles.

So male provision expanded even though women need more. Gents still get a single sex space. Humph.

I was in a m and s petrol station

Went to the ladies, three woman queue, at least 10 men went oast us to the mens which had 3 urinals and a cubicle

A man walked out of the single ladies loo, the one female toilet was baby change, womens and disabled

(Of course the man could have been disabled and in completely the right place, but the fact remains that the men had 4 spaces just for men and the women had 1 for everyone)

So by being so inclusive companies are excluding women. How does that make sense?

It doesn’t make sense, but it doesn’t have to make sense, because women don’t matter. Muslim women especially.

I work with a trans woman. She's uses the women's toilets.
No issues about that in our workplace

I bloody bet there are - those with issues are just to scared to express them.

W

F

AHF

Now those I can support.

I work with a trans woman. She's uses the women's toilets.
No issues about that in our workplace

How do you know? Just because women don't speak up doesn't mean they're not uncomfortable about it. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Don't speak up and feel deeply anxious and uncomfortable about it all. Or speak up and be accused of being a transphobic bigot and potentially lose your job. Neither are great choices are they. This is gaslighting, activists have it all sewn up where women woman are forced to remain silent whilst their boundaries and safeguards are removed.

Did the lanyard actually say pride or LGBT+ or were they just rainbow striped?

Whilst I understand that to people in the pride community, the rainbow flag can be greatly significant. I actually suspect a fair proportion of people wearing the lanyard either just thought the colours were nicer then the plain option, or wanted to show support for the NHS but not fork out to have new (split purples) rainbow lanyards made when there's a box of pride ones kicking round the office.

@thecatmother I think you need to educate yourself a bit on the arguments on both side of this, rather than just blindly going along with one because they were the first to label themselves "inclusive" and concerned for rights.

If you think this is different to widespread protest and is just targeting one person and therefore mean, fair enough, but it's painfully naive to not understand why people might support the other parts of the LGBT lanyard, whilst not supporting all policies related to trans people. They are very obviously different things and only one of them is linked to questions about women's safety.

Going in with a "talking to" to the women, eerily described as though that isn't a telling off or a threat, is bullish behaviour. Frankly it is exactly that kind of response, which is absolutely endemic among TRA, that have turned people like me, who were previously inclined to be supportive of the cause, to the other side. Women being bullied and made to shut up left right and centre for raising questions about how their own safety will be maintained whilst we all strive to be inclusive, is a very ugly look indeed.

So women should feel uncomfortable and unsafe to spare a transwoman from feeling uncomfortable and unsafe?

I fully support LGB rights. The T movement are attacking LGB as well as women.

Single sex spaces are not gendered spaces. Rather than trying to take away women's spaces, trans people should be campaigning for a third space. Why are TRAs so obsessed with getting into women's spaces if they are just trying to stay safe from men?

@FromHereToModernity

Is restroom what we'd call a cludgie?

Aye.

@Silvercatowner

*I work with a trans woman. She's uses the women's toilets. No issues about that in our workplace*

I bloody bet there are - those with issues are just to scared to express them.

Yep and they can't even change their behaviour as will then be accused of micro aggression.

So women should feel uncomfortable and unsafe to spare a transwoman from feeling uncomfortable and unsafe?

Yep. Women don’t matter.

Why are TRAs so obsessed with getting into women's spaces if they are just trying to stay safe from men?

It’s not about safety, it’s about validation. There is no validation in using a third space. Only women’s spaces will do.

'Pride' used to mean LGB community, which many people are very comfortable supporting.

T is not related to sexual orientation. Always found it slightly odd that it had got lumped in with LGBT.

Is restroom what we'd call a cludgie?

Aye.

You don’t rest in them though. I’ve heard the odd story about Americans in the UK asking for ‘restrooms’ and getting directed to areas where they can have a sit down.

@thecatmother

And one more thought. This lady is the first transgender person that I have ever met, therefore I treat her with respect, just like I would another human being. I am in my mid 40s. It makes me wonder , how many of people so vehemently protesting here have actually met a person (male or female) who is in their transition, and would you treat them with such hostility...

Another thought - maybe get to know your audience. Threads are full of mothers, sisters, friends wives of transwomen as well as transwomen all having thier say based on their experiences.

And of course 'Q' is yet another thing - it's an ideology, Queer Theory is quite a specific thing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queer_theory

Based on the work of Michel Foucault.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault

Queer theory is about questioning and dismantling 'normative' sexual behaviour and boundaries. It's distinct from homosexuality and bisexuality:

' ... whereas the terms 'homosexual', ‘gay’ or ‘lesbian’ which they used signified particular identities with stable referents (i.e to a certain cultural form, historical context, or political agenda whose meanings can be analysed sociologically), the word ‘queer’ is instead defined in relation to a range of practices, behaviours and issues that have meaning only in their shared contrast to categories which are alleged to be 'normal''

And that' s how I see it. The colleague in question is very shy and just a normal person. It actually upsets me to think that they are by default are presumed a predator. For what it's worth, I don't fear for my life when I share the space with her, and the same goes for everyone I work with. Regardless of their gender.*

Would you mind getting rid of all sex-segregated toilets in the workplace then? If you are always happy (and always will be happy in the future) with all your nice colleagues? Usually sex-segregated toilets are there for a reason. No matter how nice individual males are, we still don't just let everyone use the women's spaces. My brother is really really nice and quiet and normal, so I know that he would be fine in a woman's toilet, but other women might object! How do you know who the nice ones are if you don't know them? It's not assuming that they are all predators, but it's protecting women who won't always know who might be and who might not be. (Aside from the fact that it's not just about danger, but also about dignity and comfort having a space away from males).

’Pride' used to mean LGB community, which many people are very comfortable supporting.

I still treasure the memory of my first Pride march. And it feels very sad that nowadays, I equate Pride, Stonewall & rainbows with homophobia & wouldn’t feel safe going anywhere near them.

I support sex-segregated private spaces.

And that' s how I see it. The colleague in question is very shy and just a normal person. It actually upsets me to think that they are by default are presumed a predator. For what it's worth, I don't fear for my life when I share the space with her, and the same goes for everyone I work with. Regardless of their gender

Transwomen are not automatically deemed predators. However (some) males are responsible for the majority of sexual violence towards women (and TBF men too). As male pattern violence does not change when someone transitions, (the rate of offending is exactly the same) how are we supposed to know which born males are problematic, and which aren't? Are you happy for all males to use women's toilets / changing rooms / refuges/ prisons? And if not, why not?

I hear you OP. You have a colleague and you want to be nice and inclusive.

Apart from the fact that there may be sexual abuse survivors in your workplace that frankly, you might not be aware of that may have significant issues with this. And any female who may be having significant flooding issues may need privacy away from male eyes. I have ended up in various stages of undress in my work toilets on those occasions. I most certainly would not want to have a male walk in.

How DO you know that their need to use the female toilets is ‘just’ for toileting? And even then, two very vocal and prominent transwomen activists were mocking women’s toilet needs and sounds on twitter on international women’s day. And people denigrate women’s need for privacy?

And those two transwomen are not alone with their disrespectful opinions on women. Here are a few more very prominent ones.

twitter.com/gnarlycharz/status/1368703619684589569?s=21

So, yes. There are many many transwomen who DO respect women and we know they understand. There are a number who have shown who they are with their disrespectful comments.

This, combined with the statistics for male pattern violence and sex offences that have not been proven to reduce with transition, doesn’t convince me to allow post pubescent males, however they identify, into any female single sex space.

And yes, I know a few people under the trans umbrella. Please don’t fall into that trap of ‘you must be all coming from a place of ignorance’. We have heard it before and we will hear it again before the week is out.

It doesn’t change any of the statistics or any of the material realities brought up on this thread though.

[quote FelicityBeedle]@MrsWooster A trans woman is a woman[/quote]
What is a woman?

I don't get what wearing a rainbow lanyard around the office has to do with Pride or supporting anyone anymore than getting drunk at a Pride event.

Pride comes from sometimes shakily allied groups protesting together, with overlapping but also separate issues. Some of them conflict at times, even within the letter there is conflict on how to deal with issues. It's never been about us all agreeing and playing nice with each other - that's not what real support is. That corporations now make money off of encouraging the addiction issues within different parts of the 'umbrella' is frustrating, but just as much is a company wearing those rainbow lanyards with no actual discussion on the issues involved.

I support people trans people having better access to holistic medical care, to appearing as they wish, and having their employment rights protected the same as others. I do not support just changing the policies or signs on a toilet or changing room door without appropriate risk assessments that recognize that yes mixed sex facilities, however people identify, are riskier than single sex facilities designed in the same way. This has been shown time and again. There is a lot more to safe facility planning than whether or not there are cubical or what name is put on the door or whether a person is shy.

It's unfortunate that your trans colleague is caught in the middle of this, but the company may need to spend less money on rainbow tat and more on mediation and reconsidering their facilities. Many who've wrestled with these conflicting issues have had ideas - toilet security, making large accessible toilets more the standard over cubical, different configurations... there are better ways to support everyone than lanyards and flags (and yes, there is a trans pride flag, has been since the late '90s).

It makes me wonder , how many of people so vehemently protesting here have actually met a person (male or female) who is in their transition, and would you treat them with such hostility...

I don't get why why disagreement is automatically linked with hostility. I can treat people respectfully and disagree with them. I can disagree with people and not be hostile & even act respectfully even when I don't respect them.

I have exes who are trans, used to socialize heavily with several trans people though most have moved away, and I am a person with dysphoria who has socially been all over the place, but I do not identify as trans (and I'm strongly against applying trans/cis to people without their consent or applying any current Western ideas of gender and gender identity as a universal). I am "under the umbrella" as a bisexual.

There are times I've been treated by them with what I view as disrespect, some of which was tied to the current ideal that sex doesn't matter. Not sure if it is respectful, but I do feel sorry for one of my exes who seemed to think it was easier and better to believe they were broken for not enjoying affection with people of my sex when they thought they 'should' to the point of treating me like a test subject and lying to me for months because they thought they should & eventually it would work than to believe sex mattered in how they felt about cuddling on the couch. They're much happier now dating another trans woman, but they really need someone more convincing than me to get them click it's their ideology that's broke, not them.

Their pain is a big part of why it rankles me that that ideal that sex doesn't matter keeps being perpetuated in personal situations like toilets. No matter how we keep saying it doesn't or shouldn't, it does, to many people, ignoring that helps no one, not even the people so many are convinced they're protecting with this.

I know trans people and other gender diverse people & others who are terrified in either set of toilets, because the toilets are so often an after thought shoved in places that from a safety perspective are too often pretty bad. If people are feeling unsafe in the toilets, maybe we should change the toilets rather than keep telling people they're wrong. It'll take money and effort, but to me that's real support in action, not wearing a lanyard.

@asofanearyou. I agree with you about the bullish behaviour. I too started off as a supporter/ally and found myself being thoroughly put off by TRA's language and behaviour towards anyone who didn't give unquestioned, complete agreement. The response to JKR's thoughtful, balanced essay was an eye opener for me.

Women being 'educated' into the 'right' behaviour, particularly in the work place where they can't object without fear of losing their job or being labelled 'difficult' is chilling. There are so many reasons why single sex spaces are important!