Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

What's the matter with people in this thread? It's bizarre how many have entirely misinterpreted the OP

It’s a very sneering OP, she blames the MIL for it and thinks that because the FIL was “lovely” it couldn’t possibly be any of his doing at all 🤷🏻‍♀️

Not that that matters, what matters now is the woman needed help - not for her DIL to come and bitch about it on mumsnet and see if anyone else was like that too so she could further judge.

My parents had very gender specific roles all their married (and business) lives together. When they retired they completely reversed roles so dad cooked and shopped and did household stuff while mum got to grips with paperwork and bills. It worked well, they enjoyed the novelty and when one of them finally died the other was much more confident in doing everything.

Dad made the best soup and steak ever, home made soup of course from the garden tended by both of them!

I hear you OP and I see the same traits in both my own mum and my MIL.

Very traditional relationships, both married 50 years plus. They do the cooking, cleaning, shopping. Dad and FIL do the money, DIY, driving. Neither MIL or mum will use technology. Parents in law have an Ipad, MIL will pick it up if one of the kids uses it to facetime her, but won't ever call them, or use it for anything else. Mum flat refuses to have a smartphone, or a laptop, or a tablet. She does however happily pick up the phone and make appointments and would be better at things like dealing with lawyers and organising death certificates. Mum is trying her best to get to grips with all the finance stuff she's never had to deal with before as Dad is definitely showing signs of dementia although nothing diagnosed and just can't do it any more.

But for both MIL and mum this stuff is like a foreign language to them. They're both mid-70s and have never had to do any of it before. MIL could no sooner log into the government gateway and check her pension than fly to the moon. Learning any new skill in your mid 70s is going to be tricky though, especially when dealing with that on top of the death of a spouse.

I don’t think it’s that unusual - they had a very long term relationship and it’s natural for chores to be split.

No it isn't natural, you need to educate yourself.

My parents are a bit like this. If my mum dies first my dad is going to be totally at sea. He doesn't have an email address at all and has NO idea what money there is or anything. He has no clue how to give meter readings or anything about WiFi or the phone. He isn't a very competent cook even. He's never taken to do with any of the administrative stuff. He farms and that's all he's bothered about.

On the other hand mum has zero notion of how the car works. She doesn't even put petrol in and certainly wouldn't drive further than 10 miles. She's never done anything practical like painting or diy or anything. They have very defined roles in the relationship.

Actually she's becoming increasingly confused about dealing with forms or internet based things. She used to be a total whizz at the computer.

I think it's a confidence thing. If one person is doing all the stuff for one aspect then the other person gets a bit de-skilled. The same thing happens when you're on maternity leave and the at work partner is less good at nappies/feeding routines and so on. If you aren't dealing with it all the time you are going to be a bit slower at picking it up. I'm sure your mil will improve as she goes along.

I have only just read this, OP, but I know what you are talking about. My own parents were exactly the same, it was their generation. My mother didn't even drive and wouldn't have even known what a screen wash was, whereas she was a brilliant cook and my father wouldn't have even known how to open a tin nor what a tin opener looked like. They loved each other to bits, right to the very end, and were happy in their roles as they knew nothing else.

My dad would be absolutely lost if my mum goes first. He has never used a washing machine, doesn't cook etc. I have a gut feeling that he would learn though. He has mastered his laptop (sort of 🤣) but I am sure he would not be helpless. If that makes sense.

And thinking about my own 30 year marriage, there are things he does and things I do. We're a team. If he goes first I will suddenly have to do minor repairs, or find someone and pay them.

I dont think it is common op. Dmil passed 3 years ago age 90 fil had gone 14 years prior. Mil arranged everything asking support only for the harder emotional things from dh and Sil. This continued for 11 years until she became frail and started to struggle with managing things like shopping etc.

She was a wonderful woman and so capable she didn't hold down a job had been a SAHM but she kept her mind sharp and active. Even if they had a very traditional set up she was not incapable and not were any of her friends I met.

My favourite memory of her was about 5 years after FIL (whom she had been married to for 51 years) had passed she told me how at her knitting club the 5 of them had decided they didn't each need a man they would be quite happy to share one between the 5 of them. So he could date one of them 1 day a week and show for important parties and such but none of them saw the need for a full time guy. she was in her late 70s at this point as were her knitting friends. I still smile thinking about them having this conversation.

Because she’s ageist, offensive and goady as fuck. HTH

I am the first to claim ageism on this board and have reported posts for it in the past. I don't think MNHQ is tough enough on it. But the OP isn't being ageist at all.

People's reading comprehensive and tone interpretation is all over the place on this thread.

The problem might be internet use. Because if they missed that boat it's hard to learn something utterly new and different at an older age.

Otherwise conjuring up a nice roast Sunday lunch and wielding a modern vacuum cleaner with it's super clever bits is every bit as hard (harder imv) as putting screenwash in the car.

My Mum is 70, my Dad slightly younger and healthier but has spent the past ten years tryig to get my mum (who taught for forty years) to engage with household admin.

I think she might be able to log on to their bank account now, but her total disengagement means that Dad has had to show me everything in the hope I’ll take over if he goes first.

I suspect there’s a more even balance in my in laws, but not completely.

Going forward though it will be more men left all at sea with stuff as women seem to do so much more life admin wise nowadays.

@Iggly That's a bizarre interpretation of the OP and must involve A LOT of projection.

Are you really suggesting OP would have had a better reception on here if she had come on and slatted her dead FIL?!

This is so sad

Haven’t read the whole thread but it can work both ways, it’s not necessarily a gender thing more of a personality thing. My FIL runs a big, successful business which he started from scratch many years ago, travels a lot, very competent in many ways and extremely able to deal with all work finances etc but his wife does all the life admin at home.

He has never taxed the car, booked a holiday, spoke to the insurers, paid a bill. He does none of their home finance stuff, she is entirely in charge of it. Also married for many years, but everything related to the home is done by her.

Interesting discussion OP. My late mum (would have been 82 this year) was incredibly efficient, I even remember her cross checking the cheque book stubs. After she died everything I needed to sort out her funeral, probate, accounts was in a brief case with instructions.
My DMil on the other hand is only a couple of years younger and doesn't really make any decisions or knows about accounts or bills. She even struggles working the tv remote. Her late husband was ex army, very efficient and in charge of everything except the 4 children so I think she never really has had to worry about life admin. After he died DSil has taken over his role.

Are you really suggesting OP would have had a better reception on here if she had come on and slatted her dead FIL

How did you make that assessment about a better reception?

If DH was left to do stuff we would be paying top whack for utilities and insurance, all our money would just be in a current accounts and no holidays would get booked.

My own early 30s DH has no idea how to sort out our utility bills, setting up suppliers, our mortgage and whatnot. I've been doing it since the age of 22 so just carried on doing it when we met and married whereas he lived in a flat with bills included previously so he's had no reason or chance to learn what to do. If I died now he'd be on a steep learning curve. So I don't think its just the older generation, but I do think it is common.

He deals with practical stuff and I deal with admin stuff. We both stick to what we are good at. I don't have a clue about DIY.

This is the research I was thinking about. <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/reports-and-publications/age_uk_digital_inclusion_evidence_review_2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjIq_aSkv3vAhV0_7sIHUIpDX0QFjAAegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw0Vsz-o3GQzdh1Wwlh5zlIq" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/reports-and-publications/age_uk_digital_inclusion_evidence_review_2018.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjIq_aSkv3vAhV0_7sIHUIpDX0QFjAAegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw0Vsz-o3GQzdh1Wwlh5zlIq

Clearly lots of older people are fine and capable. But by definition, if posting on MN you're one of the haves not the have-nots.

Just realised I was answering this as if about my DM - when actually DH is 74 and I'm 70 this year.
DH posts lots of youtube videos of his hobby, with international interest.
I trade shares online, not too much into social media but all banking etc is done individually online.
But our work meant IT use. I can see if it didn't you could be left behind.

My exMIL is a bit like that, very capable, independent and opinionated woman... who refuses to learn how to operate from a washing machine to a mobile phone. And why would she if my late PIL sorted all the things she refused or was not interested in sorting herself.

I sometimes despair when she starts shouting at me that she cannot understand DS, that she needs to see his face but refuses to press the button inviting her to turn the camera on in WhatsApp. No interest on trying whatsoever, apparently it would be much better if DS flied to see her than pressing the bloody button on the phone (we live thousands of miles apart and she has been insisting on that since DS was 3)

So, you have my commiserations but remember, it might be difficult for her to catch up on so many skills when she has not had to use any for years/in her life. She may be overwhelmed as well so just be patient, it is a big adjustment for her to make.

@Harriettheoriginalspy

You don’t sound very nice

Neither do you.

My SIL is similar to the OP's MIL. She is a perfectly capable woman, yet has decided that she doesn't need to know a lot of life skills because she can delegate to other people. My nephews are getting frustrated with her and have refused to do everything and told her that she needs to start getting out of her comfort zone.

She has no memory issues. She is just stuck in the 1950s and has played the helpless woman for so long she doesn't know any other way to live. She knows how to use her laptop, but couldn't even renew her driving licence online, and wanted one of her sons to do it. If she had asked me I would have said "I'll show you how to do it", but she just expected her son to do it for her. That's when the getting out of her comfort zone comment came out.

Even DH is getting frustrated with her negative "I can't do this" attitude, because she doesn't even try.

DH has memory issues so the majority of life skills falls to me anyway (I am 62). I'm pretty sure that as I am still working it keeps my brain in gear, so to speak. I hope it doesn't atrophy when I eventually stop working.

@Iggly because you suggested OP hadn't been critical enough of her dead FIL for he MIL's situation.

Which is weird. At best.