Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

I don't think it's that common. Some of this will be because of their relationship, some because of grief which can entirely mess with your ability to take things in.

I've never booked a foreign holiday or had anything to do with car maintenance.

I don't think it's particularly common. I've come across a couple of women (through work related stuff) in that age group that relied very heavily on their husbands, but the overwhelming majority managed life admin themselves (unless dementia had started to take hold.)

I'm another one baffled at the hassle OP is getting - to me she comes over as worried and a bit exasperated, but very caring of her MIL.

It does sound, OP, as if your MIL is slowly coming round, as it were - bank transfers, satnav - and possibly her recent incompetence has been a combo of shock and grief, and the collapse of confidence those things can cause. But I can see why you are surprised by her lack of ability with life management. If my DM were still around, she'd be over 90. I'm not sure I'd have got her on board with technology, but she was always the one who worried about the money, paid the bills, arranged the MOT etc etc.

Fingers crossed you MIL carries on picking up the reins and becomes more independent.

Shit, this post has made me realise this is me. We both work full time and have young kids and DH and I do different life admin things. He has not a clue about mine and I have no idea about his. Thing is, he does all the technology related stuff. I have literally no idea about any of his .
I really need to learn this stuff don't I? I would be screwed if he died suddenly. I think I have been avoiding learning these things as (a) just time - we have so little free time that its easier just to concentrate on doing our own stuff. (b) he's a terrible teacher (c) he's a bit of an arse about things I don't understand so I we always fall out when I ask him to show me how to do things so I avoid asking him.

But I really need to learn don't I? Better crack on with that.

I struggle with the tv remote too ( admittedly we have only just got a tv and I haven't lived in a house with one for 30 years). I also don't know how to tax a car! (but presume a simple google search could sort that out). I don't know how to put screen wash in a car! (only started driving recently too)

Fuck I'm crap!

You're asking a reasonable question OP because the backlash of her helplessness will now fall to you and your DH indefinitely. More work, more stress. I never understand why people are so 'blinkered' about getting old and the fact that things are going to change massively for one partner. And plan accordingly to reduce the burden on family.
Perfectly understandable to be frustrated.

I have found the opposite when my MIL died my FIL didn't have a clue. Still doesn't his kids do it all for him. It's about the individuals and the dynamics of their relationship not their sex

My parents were exactly like this.

I remember my mum, in her 60s, being unable to write a cheque or even knowing where to start regarding organising house insurance, getting the boiler fixed etc.

That was all dad's job, and no, she wouldn't have been able to learn. Not saying 'women can't learn', SHE wouldn't have been able to.

What is wrong with the OP is the overall tone of her post. It is as chirrupy as the birds I heard at dawn this morning. Chirrupy than a chirrupy thing. The underlying fact is that this woman is only bereaved about 8 weeks. There is a sneering, barely disguised sense of superiority, derision, faux-astonishment and the whole thing is just off. That the OP merrily declares her career to be an OT is fucking baffling. That is what half of them do! Facilitate people to live life independently. I don't like the overall tone of the post and I'm dubious as to the authenticity of the poster's intentions. Short of outright calling her dearly beloved MIL a fucking dimwit, she couldn't have been more derogatory. Just my opinion of course.

My mother was/still is a bit like that @ElphabaTheGreen

Thinks it was the husbands job to 'do that stuff' - struggles with the very basics. I have set up DD for them both - he is still alive but has dementia so she has to gradually learn it all.

Maybe for some people that was the norm back then?

A friend of my mums has never put petrol in her own car or driven more than 20 minutes from her house - her husband does it. (She is in her fifties) He treats her like she’s made of glass and she acts like she is.

A friends MIL has never used a cash point - she’s mid sixties.

For both of these women it is personality type combined with men who enable them to be this way - just like fully grown men who claim not to be able to operate a washing machine or make more than toast.
(To be fair to both these women, I don’t think their husbands touch a thing in that area as it’s all very traditional).

@ElphabaTheGreen

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

You won’t like this but I will tell you any way. Many men of her generation deliberately undermined their wives and kept them ‘down’ so they could be superior. You will probably find as time goes on she will improve leaps and bounds. My aunt went from this, immediately after my financially and emotionally abusive uncle’s death, to having fun and running her own life in a matter of 7 months. Now she says the best thing my uncle did for her was die which is sad for her kids but she is really living life now.

As for how to organise a funeral, who the hell knows that?

By contrast, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, my poor DH (mid 30’s with a very high profile career) wouldn’t have the first clue about our household finances, how to look after DC etc, and takes an age to do basic household admin e.g. pay the electricity. Fairly inept in respect of tech. in spite of his youth because his job simply doesn’t depend on it and he lacks an interest in it. Some people are just like as you describe your DMIL which is fine, except that when something like DFIL passes it leaves others under pressure to organise these things and, can be worrying - you sound like you are worried that your DMIL won’t cope, but in time she will find her independence. Your DH could write instructions for her to refer to when she needs to and, if not already done so, file things and put tabs/labels on them for her ease of reference.

I don't think it's just tech/internet etc. My MIL can't even deal with "old fashioned" paperwork like an appointment letter from a dentist or hospital, nor paper bills/bank statements. She's a spritely 79 year old with no other confusion/forgetful issues and spends her days reading and doing crosswords etc. But she's incapable of reading/understanding any kind of "official" paperwork. I think her mind just shuts down with that kind of thing. FIL used to do all the life admin, he died 10 years ago, so my MIL was "only" 69 but even then she couldn't deal with paperwork etc so it's not even an age thing. She's had 10 years of denial and just piles up paperwork for us to deal with when we go to see her. We have to read it out and explain it to her, even though she could easily read the words on the paper herself. We find it very strange. As for internet etc, not a hope, she couldn't even get to grips with a simple/basic mobile phone 10 years ago. We can have an in depth discussion about current affairs or World politics but she can't even understand the thermostat for her central heating - she turns it to full and can't understand why the house does get hotter quicker than when she turns it to half - OH has explained dozens of times it's an on/off switch not a variable heat control, but she still expects it to work like a normal gas fire or gas cooker. Anything she did in her middle aged years, she can deal with, but anything new over the last decade in her 60's, she can't, whatver it is.

I'm another one baffled at the hassle OP is getting - to me she comes over as worried and a bit exasperated, but very caring of her MIL.

I agree.

It's never too late to learn @Ohgodthatsme. Nearly everything can be found with a quick google. Taxing a car online is even easier than going to the post office. The website is really intuitive and the questions are easy to answer.

It really is an eye-opener @Ohgodthatsme I’ve now put pressure on DH to put together a business continuity plan as he runs his own business - if he were to get hit by a bus tomorrow, I would have no clue what to do and his employees’ jobs would be at stake. He wouldn’t know anything about my personal accounts, pensions, professional memberships that would need winding up...we’d both have the wherewithal to work it out (which we don’t think DMIL has as she’s never done it for herself), but an added layer of grief would make it so difficult.

Step one, everyone, once more and with feeling GET LPAs SORTED!

Highly unusual. My mother is the same age and handles all the life admin!

Do you know it’s still more common than you think, even for younger generations.

My in-laws family a prime example. Wives can’t drive, they do everything together (they even food shop as a couple). They have been to uni but have never had careers. They are in 50s and 60s.

Similarly cousins of mine in their 30s can drive!?! but wouldn’t have a clue on personal finances and have jobs rather than careers. Again not wealthy, and any Ron where I grew up who does well, well wife will become a lady of leisure and have her nails and hair done.

Similarly, my educated friend has just moved house and doesn’t know what her mortgage lump sum or monthly payments are. All handled by her husband.

Three examples of different social structures - educated middle class, working class and last example upper-middle.

There is no way I could live like this and makes me a little frustrated.

In these scenarios, the females are dependents and therefore would have limited ability to leave as 1) have no idea of household finances 2) have no career and are therefore limited.

I understand often this is a sign of a committed relationship but not always.

So I think OP you have raised a good point, and I should say I do really like my family and friends - for the most part!! However, these behaviours are not something I would want younger generations to emulate but sadly they often will, as they will normalise it and copy their parents.

I think people forget how quickly technology has moved. I was born in 1950, when I was growing up, there were no phones, (you walked to the phone box) cars, only the GP and District Nurses,, and they had phones, no TVs. My late F rode a push bike to work, later it was a motor bike, then a side car.

My mum is 81 and utterly helpless in terms of life admin, but it's not a recent thing. My dad died a couple of years ago and he would have looked after things like house insurance, car stuff etc but he was also pretty hopeless although at least he did try. They bought their house in 1995 and once the initial term of the mortgage expired and they went onto SVR and paid stupid interest rates for years till they sold the house. It didn't occur to them to move the mortgage or look for a better product because "nobody told us to" - I only found this out years later. My mum was apparently incapable of even reading her census form this year,. My dad would have looked after things like that and now it's all down to me, I do absolutely everything admin-related for her from housing benefit to pension stuff to TV licence because if she's told to do it herself she just cries and wails "I'm not fit". I'm not sure she could even change a light bulb and if the fuses tripped she would sit in darkness and wait for someone to come and reset them rather than tackle it herself. She has zero interest in learning to be more independent and has never ever been any different. It is incredibly frustrating. I have tried, my husband has tried (and been endlessly patient with her) and multiple other friends and family members have tried to teach her things but she just refuses to learn.

My MIL turns 70 this week. Thinking back to when my own mum was 70 she was pretty much exactly the same as she is now. My MIL is completely capable, apart from that she doesn't drive (passed her test years and years ago and never drove again and never will) but she's certainly able to organise bus or train journeys. She is as sharp now as she was when I first met her 16 odd years ago, the only difference is that her knees have started to play up It's definitely an individual thing rather than an age/sex thing.

I look after most of our admin but it's more a division of labour thing. I keep thinking I should organise it all so that if anything happened to me my husband wouldn't have to scrabble around to find things like bank logins and insurance details.

My DM has never been managed, and has run her own household and held down very professional jobs since she was 22, so she's more than capable. However as she gets older she's trying to pass more of her "life admin" on to me - not because she's not capable, but because she can't be bothered with it!

I get it - after 40+ years of being responsible for everything, she must be tired of it! But I have my own life and family and responsibilities to deal with, I can't take on all of hers too! So I help her with the bits I think she'll genuinely find difficult - like when she recently needed to buy a new car - but push back on things I know she can manage easily but just can't be bothered with, like when she recently asked me to call her mobile provider for her and change her tariff.

I suppose the OP's MIL is finding it all a bit daunting, after so many years of someone else doing it all for her.

@gottakeeponmovin

I have found the opposite when my MIL died my FIL didn't have a clue. Still doesn't his kids do it all for him. It's about the individuals and the dynamics of their relationship not their sex

Dad was like this. Had no idea how to pay the bills as he’s dyslexic so mum did it all. After she got sick he had to learn but even then my brother needs to help him a lot. But he’s really good with savings and complex financial and investment products - so it’s not that he can’t learn he just doesn’t want to.

my brother and I get emailed a detailed itinerary every time they go away for more than a couple of days "just in case"

My Dad does this! It goes hand in hand in their case with the fact that they only switch on their mobile phones if they want to make a call, so when they're away from home they're uncontactable. They haven't made the transition most of the rest of us have now to accepting that the mobile, not the landline, is the main way of phoning/contacting someone and it should therefore be on all the time (all day, anyway). My parents are in their late 80s and they're not going to change in this respect now. Drives my brother potty.

@PinkTonic

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She's literally none of those things.

OP, my FIL died last year and my MIL is similar - they had very prescribed roles and she doesn't have a clue about finances. In her case though there was an abusive element as FIL was secretive, controlling and stingy and has left her in a difficult situation as he would never have a joint bank account and her only income currently is state pension. They were well off but he considered it his money as she never worked (I don't know for sure but I would guess he didn't encourage her to), and it's taking ages to sort out his estate due to various issues. She's so much happier though and is a very positive person, I think she will learn as she goes along.

All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address.

This is the sentence which pissed me off to be honest. Callous I think. Her husband of 48 years died 2 months ago and an Occupational Therapist cannot comprehend how she might not give a shiny fuck about wills, probate and solicitors right now. This is usually where families help out. Not due to the age of the bereaved but due to being kind caring individuals.