Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

Only February, blimey so it’s all still very raw for everyone. She’s done amazingly well to pick up some stuff already given how awful and recent it all is (she can now check online banking and has done us a couple of bank transfers...with the intriguing reference of ‘Paris’ , has driven to a friend’s place using sat nav for the first time). This is why I’m optimistic that she’ll be OK and DH is possibly catastrophising about anything more sinister like early dementia, although I wouldn’t rule it out as a possibility completely.

I dont; know if arranging a funeral is a basic life skill, it's not something I was ever taught several friends like this same age, "Oh Fred deals with all that sort of thing", have never had a passport or learned to drive, I think will come unstuck if Fred goes firstI deal with all the paperwork "stuff" because I worked in admin, he does the techi stuff, highly qualified in his profession, but has mental issues, cannot deal with phone/people

I don’t understand the critical responses, OP. To me it’s perfectly understandable to be bemused.
I wouldn’t be too surprised that anyone in your MiL’s position hadn’t been doing such things for years, but even allowing for grief, I would wonder at any reasonably intelligent person’s unwillingness to try.

My DM, who died at 97, had a close friend who’d never done any such admin throughout a long married life. Even when cheques were so widely used, since marriage she’d never so much as written one - she had her housekeeping money in cash every week, and that was it. AFAIK it was a perfectly happy marriage, and she’d held down a responsible office job while single, so it wasn’t that she was incapable.

My Dm, who was very clued up about all things admin/financial, and needed no help in such matters after DF died, was at an utter loss to understand how any woman even of that generation could have been happy with such an arrangement.

My MIL will be like this. Her H does everything.

OP I can completely see how this would happen and combined with grief will make it worse.

You sound like you're helping her in the right way, to support her to be independent eventually.

To answer you actual question rather than being shitty as some PP's have opted for () we'd known for a while that if my Grandad was the first to pass away my Grandmother would struggle - other way around would have been ok as he was a very practical Man.

As it happened he went first, and while she was ok with some stuff (bank accounts etc) when it came to anything remotely technological, anything to do with the house, anything legal, anything to do with the car etc she was utterly lost. She also wouldn't drive more than about 5 miles from home.

In pre-COVID times part of my job was teaching IT skills to older people.

Often just setting up an email address but it could be online banking, shopping, insurance. It was an even male/female split but all had the same issue, confidence. Some came back repeatedly and some popped by for reassurance every so often. Most had family and friends who tried to help but perhaps became frustrated after a while.

When things become a bit more normal your MIL might look to her library or AGE UK for some of these sessions.

My own parents and MIL are all capable of dealing with their own life admin!

I am working on the census helpline, the the majority of our calls are older people (very often older women) who's spouse has died and they have no idea how to complete the census or answer any of the questions (some are unaware that there has ever been a census with their name on in the past) because their parents did it first them first and then their spouse has since quietly carried out all life admin.

Working in a library I often see elderly couples where one spouse navigates the self service machines, paying fines, keeping a record of who has which books on their account etc. And the other spouse just chooses their books snd then stands their like a child while everything is done for them (often this is because their mental capacity is diminishing, sometimes the other is a very domineering character and it comes across as control rather than kindness, and sometimes it's just the way their marriage has always been, and works well for them) so yes, in my experience this is not very unusual.

Your poor MIL this must make her grief so much harder, as life must suddenly be a much more scary place without her support, and extra pressure on you and DH in a difficult time too

As she begins to learn new skills, she will feel such a sense of achievement. Perhaps she could reach out and join some groups (maybe even one for people who've lost spouses) she may make some new friends and travel companions.

I think you said it yourself, they had clearly defined roles.
Don't forget girls born of your Mils generation did not do woodwork, metal work, car maintenance at school. I wish I had done car maintenance and mechanics at school, unfortunately only the less academic boys were allowed to do that. Likewise only girls were allowed to do dressmaking.
She really does need to learn about her own finances though.

In our house it is more the other way round, we are over 60 and I tend to do all the money and house admin/organisation, I thought this was more common, especially with the amount of women on here that say they do all of this stuff. It will be the men that don't have a clue.

I worked in banking in the 1980s and came across this so often in women being widowed at that time. Many couples seemed to have very defined roles. Like you, OP, I would expect it to be very different for your MIL’s generation, although I’m 60 and know one or two women my age who live in a sort of pre-Internet bubble. They’re the exception rather than the rule.

Hopefully your MiL will be able to pick things up re the Internet and email etc from you and DH, and do encourage her to learn as she may have many years ahead of her. As for holidays, there are lots of organised group packages she could easily access where they pick you up from your home town.

Good luck with the vast amount of patience you will need, though.

Sometimes this forum is such an amazing resource, and sometimes I am so confused by the snitty level of replies to things. It's like people deliberately misunderstand in order to be able to take offence. I just wanted to say I have found this a fascinating read. It's good to hear different experiences and stories of older couples and the division of labour. It's relevant to me because it makes me think about the habits I fall into with my partner. I think it's a really interesting question and clearly came from a good place. Nowt wrong with having an enquiring mind and wondering how widespread an experience is. Sorry for your loss OP.

In 40 years time my grandkids will be saying the same thing... ‘she can’t even code!!’

OP this division of responsibility is very much what we saw with my GP, but they would have been in their 90s now. I think probably less common for people in their 70s but then I think to my in-laws and I can see similarities. I don’t know when the last time I heard of my MIL driving anywhere and FIL takes care of anything ‘practical’ while she deals with more domestic matters. This division of responsibility is more obvious since they’ve retired, I suppose they’ve fallen into their routine.

My DH’s parents are like this. And actually, yes, while his dad loves his mum, he is absolutely a bit of a control freak and that’s why he does it all.

It doesn’t matter if other people are like this, it matters that your mother in law is (was) and needed help. She’s getting better, good for her!

My dhs grandmother is in her 70s and does everything you have listed, however her dh would be lost without her as he has become quite depressed since retiring and hasn't done any life or social admin in years.
On the other hand my Mil lost her partner 3 years ago and didn't know how to do the most basic of things. She was mid 40s at the time. We have been helping her learn these skills but I suspect she has some form of learning difficulty as her uptake of new info is shockingly poor. however she is learning all be it very slowly.
I dont think it is generational as my own dm is only a few years older than mil and she is entirely competent. Its more likely opertunity to develop and practice these skills

My DM is early 60s and runs her life very efficiently. She had to as a single mum but tbh she did it even before my parents divorced as my dad is/was lazy and useless

Her sister on the other hand, is exactly like your MIL. Her husband is a high earner and takes care of all the bills. She works, but all of her income is 'pocket money' for her. She has zero concept about how much things cost, and god forbid my uncle died tomorrow I think she would really struggle.

I'm not sure it's a generational thing (anymore), but more the type of partner you end up with, along with the type of personality you are. My uncle 'manages' everything and she's quite happy to go with the flow. If my DM (or I) had a partner that tried to do this we would push back as we're used to our independence!

I think it's very common. My mum is not quite as bad, but similar. Doesn't have a mobile phone, no email address. I find it staggering.

What's the matter with people in this thread? It's bizarre how many have entirely misinterpreted the OP.

To be honest, it's the easiest thing in the world for roles to end up being divided up in a long relationship. I was the finance half of the couple, Mainly because I was good at saving etc, and my husband didn't trust himself to be. But as we got older it did bother me that I was the one who knew where our money was, who our utilities were with etc, and tried to make sure he at last knew the basics, the passwords etc.

I'm 65 and was widowed at 56. There's really nothing I didn't know how to do, of his roles. I might choose not to do some of it and pay someone instead though!

I do think it's important for couples to be aware as they get older, of what they do and don't know about in the admin sense. Now I'm alone I have an LPA in place, and everything gathered in one place to make life easier for my daughters if I lose the ability to run my own life, or when I die. It's important to make life as simple as possible for those we leave behind, be it a partner or offspring.

My mil is like this, not through being widowed but being divorced. She has no idea at all.

I don’t think it’s that unusual - they had a very long term relationship and it’s natural for chores to be split.

I’m in my 40s. I do not know:
The totality of our family outgoings
How to book an MOT or in fact anything car related (windscreen wash - no idea?!)

Like your mil if necessary I would learn.

I’m a bit like this, and I’m in my 50s. I work full time. I really, really struggle with life admin. I panic, feel completely overwhelmed and frightened, struggle to open post, worry about money. I’m very disorganised and lose things a lot. I don’t know who the bills are with, don’t know how to change energy supplier, wouldn’t know how to get a mobile phone contract, don’t know about pensions, insurances, wouldn’t be able to plan anything, like a holiday. I find life in general overwhelming and difficult, just getting through each day. Adding these “extra” things seems too much.

I think it is common for couples to have clearly defined roles - I don’t think it was particularly wise in the situation you describe, as surely the lack of life skills thing would have been apparent to them both?

You could maybe encourage her to sign up for a variety of courses once she is over the grief and shock of it all, to boost her confidence.

Alternatively, it can be an age thing. My mum is ten years older, and lives independently and runs her house etc. However, she is extremely unwilling to learn new skills now and gets very easily flustered by them. Online shopping or banking will never be her comfort zone.

What a horrible bunch of responses. I really really hate the way it is impossible to ask a question on MN recently without judge and jury attempting to discern whether or not you are REASONABLE and INNOCENT enough to be asking the question in the first place. It's like the witch trials and is deeply misogynistic and nasty.

Those of you who came on to insult and sneer at a recently bereaved woman trying to help her mother in law and rule out dementia on behalf of her grieving, anxious husband, shame on you.

Not sure why people think you don't sound nice you are just stating facts.
I know several people like this and I find it absolutely terrifying. My own mother is one and I don't think she will want to live when her husband dies. She can't even put petrol in the car.
I'm 60 and I've the inbetween generation who started off without computers etc but I've had to educate myself and now there is nothing I cannot do which is just as well as I live alone.
It is very very cruel to allow your partner to be hopeless like this and no woman should be allowing themselves to be "looked after" in this oppressive, crushing way.
My old boss had a heart attack on a walking holiday, his wife who was 65 at the time had totally relied on him, she didn't know how to put put petrol in the car, what was in the bank accounts, had never worked, had no idea about their pensions, whether the mortgage was paid off or anything. A couple of months after he died she threw herself to her death off a local cliff. She couldn't cope with life without him.
A relationship should always be equal, nobody should be left like this.

I used to be in a WI group, a constant discussion in the wider organisation was whether or how to embrace technology. Its still common in WIs with the older demographic, for most members to have no computer or email, to stubbornly resist online engagement. Messages, newsletters etc are hand delivered or telephoned by the committee. Its seen as a threat or waste of time.

I read that the 70+ generation of women still has 40-50% who do not have any digital engagement at all. Not seen in men of that age or any other age group. Its their choice but it's quite limiting in this society.