Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

@WombatChocolate. Good list. There are a few on there I need to brush up on. I do feel a bit panicky sometimes at the thought of doing everything myself if I was left alone. So this thread is a good nudge for my present/future self! DH tends to do banking (he urges me to listen/watch and I do have all the p/w but I am easily bored!)

I could do most of the list but need to brush up on

Car tax/insurance
Operation of strimmer to cut lawn (bumpy allotment)
Where fuse box is and how to change fuse - ditto mains water/stop cock
How much £ we have in total and where

Practice driving - it brings me out in a cold sweat and like the PP I get freaked out by any minor mistake. I find it hard to anticipate and react at junctions/roundabouts. Basically I need to move to a country of very long straight roads like USA. Sadly, I don't want to live in America.
When are self driving cars coming again?

Oh and funeral wishes. That's been on our to do list for 10 years now.

There always seems to be something more pressing to deal with. Sadly there will be a day where this IS the most important task.

My Mum is 78 and my dad passed two.years ago. She took care of the house but had no interest in anything else. l was widowed years before her aged 44., Life for me carried on business as always, l had two son s age 7 and 11 and was working part time. I never once asked her for any help and she never offered. She is not at all maternal. Now my Dad has gone l spend quite a lot of time dealing with stuff she can't do. I am thankful l am not putting this pressure on my sons, l know l am much younger than her obviously, but our world's are so very different. She can't drive, has never used a computer, has gone quite deaf but refuses to see dr, so can't even deal with a phone call. Since my Dad has died l don't think she has actually sorted any life admin on her own.

My Gran is a bit like this. Her husband died when my Gran was still in her 60s, not that much older than my dad is now. My Gran had no understanding of anything technological (including the TV) and no ability to manage her own finances.

So my mum started doing the finances for her, and even now, about 20 years on, my mum pays all her bills, writes all her cheques, accompanies her to the bank, and so on. Mum doesn't mind doing it, as far as I can tell, and she does have sisters who will help with things like arranging tradesmen, doing other jobs and so on.

But I do wonder what would happen if anything happened to my mum- there's no-one else in the family with the time or desire to take on managing my Gran's whole finances. I suppose one of her other daughters would have to, but they both have to work full time, so it would be difficult for them.

At the time, I'm sure Gran could have learned at least some of the skills needed to manage her own finances, to make herself less dependent. I think she would struggle now (in her mid eighties).

Equally, on my dad's side of the family, my Grandad passed away first, but I'm sure he would have struggled massively to cope alone- not in terms of cooking and cleaning, but because my Nan managed all the finances, did the weekly shop and so on. Grandad hated leaving the house (he probably had mental health problems, although these were never diagnosed) and would have never managed without support.

I think it is normal to worry about a parent who is in theory capable being dependent on you forever, and unfortunately, it can happen.

That's a good list @WombatChocolate. Unless there are health or memory issues I would expect both men and women to be able to do most of not all of the things on that list.

Haha. I have to admit I can’t do all those things on my list either...my DH does some of them, but I know if he wasn’t around, I’d need to do them.

I’m not sure I know where to put screen wash in one of the cars but I’m pretty sure I could learn that. I do know where the fuse box is in cases the lights go. I haven’t ever operated the fuses though. Perhaps it’s not necessary to replace fuses anymore.

Oh yes, the stopcock for the water - forgot that. I know where it is but not what you’re mean to to do with it.

As someone else said though, for lots of these things I would feel confident to Google and get the answer. Frequent users of the internet or those who’ve had it for years are always looking stuff up and knowing you. An find answers gives you confidence. Lots of older people wouldn’t feel confident to do that. And you have to know the Q to ask and know it’s a Q that needs answering, in order to ask it and find the answer. Sometimes people are overwhelmed by life and don’t even know what they don’t know.

Someone definitely should run a basic course or perhaps write a book for the older generation to give couples a chance to talk with each other about these things and share their knowledge while they are able to. Between both people in a couple. They can probably manage all or most of the things that are needed, so it’s simply a Q of knowing what they need to know and share, and probably each having somewhere the info is jotted down into.

Is this a new career opportunity for someone?!?

Not sure how common this is amongst older women and men 70 plus, but I can only speak from my own experience with my own Mother and MIL.

They are both mid 70s, but are so different when it comes to dealing with life admin .

Not being savvy with life admin has had a huge impact on Mum and not in a positive way. She relied on Dad to sort everything. It impacts time wise on my own family because DH I have to sort the most basic things out for her.

Mum cannot, use a computer, the Internet, email, shop online, use her smart phone, she has gone back to a basic mobile. Refuses to go on a train or plane on her own. She will use the local bus service and take the coach up to her friend 'because she knows where she is going' still uses cash and withdraws from the bank in person a set amount cash she needs for the week ahead.

MIL though can use a basic computer programme, she insisted on going to silver surfers when she retired, can email, text and use what's app, she does her banking online, and shops online she thinks her machine (I pad) is marvellous in what it can do her words not mine.

This thread has made me incredibly proud of my Nan. Widowed in her 50s she has learnt everything as she went along from tech to DIY. She doesn’t get any help in unless it’s a builder type job.

I think that some women have been spoiled and effectively babied by their partners, who have done everything for them. The little woman syndrome.

Or is it the Big/Strong/Competent/Superior Man syndrome?

We need to examine our language here because there are some very deep-seated assumptions behind the terms we use.

Women who have been asked or required - very subtly in the vast majority of cases - to live in a gilded cage all their lives are very often the victims here.

They are victims of a mindset that stems from firm belief in the existence women's brains and men's brains, and a strong investment by the men in their lives that men are superior, deal with the 'important' things, and women deal with 'trivial' and 'insignificant' stuff - raising the babies, cooking, cleaning up after everyone, and everything else assigned to the feminine sphere.

My mum in her 70's was absolutely fine with life admin (bills, banks etc) she was a computer programmer so funnily enough was good with computers unfortunately she now has dementia and can no longer remember to eat, let alone anything else.
Funnily enough she was good the admin stuff amazingly shit at caring, compassion, cooking, cleaning etc
I think it's a personality thing not a gender thing.
My dad is rubbish at life admin and since my mum & him divorced (16yrs ago) he's always on the phone asking me how to do stuff, unfortunately his partner is good at it at work but rubbish at home so they are a right pair - they are good together just don't ask them to organise anything.

This thread has been really interesting. I think you can’t generalise about things like this. Some older people find technology really difficult and others take to it quickly. My Mum (in her 70s) can email and Google but wouldn’t do shopping or banking online. My Dad isn’t interested in using a computer.

You said the bereavement only happened in February. I imagine your MIL is feeling hugely overwhelmed and vulnerable. All you can do is try to help her adapt.

I read a book which said the things we find most annoying in other people are things we can also find in ourselves. So if your MIL’s lack of skills or confidence are annoying you think about how you might be like this in your own life. Is there any area where you have been needy or inexperienced, where you have needed help and guidance? Once you can identify the characteristic in yourself, it’s easier to have compassion and patience for the other person. Good luck OP.

My mother is like this too. She's 74. I think in some ways it has been convenient for her because it has meant she has never had to worry about money, or when the car insurance runs out, or if they're using too much electricity etc. My father takes all of that on his shoulders. He drives all the long distances, and always does any driving abroad. She leaves all major decisions up to him, which gives her carte blanche to blame him when things go wrong. If she doesn't want to do something, she says he won't let her. She just lives in a little protected bubble and I do worry that if he dies before her, it will be so much worse for her because she has allowed herself to not be able to cope with life's admin.

[quote weightedblanketlove]**@HilaryThorpe some are assertive of course, but the majority of women in my mum's generation ( nearing 70) that I know, I would not describe as assertive and many appear to be in far more traditional type relationships.

We are still far from being equal. I can only hope we get nearer in my daughter's generation....[/quote]
@HilaryThorpe

I have every sympathy with the OP describing the difficult situation with her MiL - I just wish the title hadn't led to the inevitable ageist stereotyping displayed by some posters.

@SecretWitch

A thread such as this is just one opportunity to take a swipe at older women.

It's not ageist to state the obvious (to most people) fact that some women 70 and over, are often a bit clueless about tech, and finances. And the fact that quite a number of them can't drive, or swim, or ride a bicycle. No-one has said ALL of them are like this, but many people have said some of them are. And that's because some of them are!

I am sick of this ridiculous spiel that some people spill out, that we can't say a single bloody thing about people over 65 that isn't glowing and complimentary, without being called AGEIST. Just stop it already!

Also, the thing is, everyone grumbles about stereotypes, but the fact is, all stereotypes come from somewhere, and some people actually ARE stereotypical of that demographic.

As @weightedblanketlove said

hilary, some are assertive of course, but the majority of women in my mum's generation (nearing 70) that I know, I would not describe as assertive and many appear to be in far more traditional type relationship...

So whilst it may not suit some people to hear it, the fact is that many women over 70 do fit the 'stereotype' of women over 70 not being very tech savvy, and not knowing how to deal with finances. Yeah maybe a few men do (as several pp said,) but this thread isn't about the men, it's about the women.

I don't know why some people get so sniffy and annoyed when people are just stating their opinions and views, based on the experience of the people they know (and especially when there is some truth to it.)

Why are you so bothered what other people say and think? Is it hitting a raw nerve?

Also, yeah there WAS sexism (back in the 1980s and even 1990s,) and men overlooking women when they were buying a car and buying furniture etc, and not taking their opinions seriously... Maybe it didn't happen to all women, but it happened to some women. I do fucking loathe this 'well it never happened to me, therefore it never happened to any other woman' bullshit some people come out with!

My DM is just like this.
She left school at 15 and married DF at 18.
I love her to bits but she literally has no clue about anything. She doesn't drive, she doesn't pay bills, she can't use a computer, can't use her mobile other than to send a text or ring my dad from her recent calls.
She doesn't go anywhere without him and he mollycoddles her like she's a helpless baby, it's crazy. If he goes out for a work meeting he makes sure she has lunch ready, he books her dentist / GP appts for her, she texts me if she needs to buy anything online because she can't do it - honestly it's ridiculous and I think the roles they've fallen into has really held her back in life. She's only 65!!

I can think of 3 people in my family who this would have applied to, 1 still alive and the other 2 were pre- everything dictated by the internet. They were not all married, sometimes the dynamic came about with another close relative. Their siblings, children etc. (still living) are, on balance, the complete opposite and very much on top of life admin.

I do think that the sense of everything's first port of call now being online is not something to sneer at, and as others have said, who is there to teach and to be patient (not sneer)? Can a carer? Doesn't seem usual. Is it fine to have a mobile provide its manual...on the mobile, if you find it? It was not by any means always like this and now everything seems to require a very machine-like understanding and 'compliance', which is a frustrating, blunt, and time consuming instrument when you are trying to get medical attention (8 screens with the option to highlight the bits that are sick or the advice you have already followed. before a phonecall 24 hours later from a doctor who may never have seen you before), a prescription, or your own bills/money. At the same time, with so much publicity of taking responsibility for avoidance of being scammed, lack of data security and everything.

You do your grieving DMIL a disservice with the 'inept' judgment.

@BettyOBarley

My DM is just like this. She left school at 15 and married DF at 18. I love her to bits but she literally has no clue about anything. She doesn't drive, she doesn't pay bills, she can't use a computer, can't use her mobile other than to send a text or ring my dad from her recent calls. She doesn't go anywhere without him and he mollycoddles her like she's a helpless baby, it's crazy. If he goes out for a work meeting he makes sure she has lunch ready, he books her dentist / GP appts for her, she texts me if she needs to buy anything online because she can't do it - honestly it's ridiculous and I think the roles they've fallen into has really held her back in life. She's only 65!!

That's terrible. Sadly though, not uncommon. Thankfully women are a lot more independent in general these days.

Women who have been asked or required - very subtly in the vast majority of cases - to live in a gilded cage all their lives are very often the victims here.

I totally agree. I know a fair number of women whose husbands used to do the majority of driving, and all the motorway driving. The women have only been allowed to be local drivers. In one case the husband was taken ill on holiday in Dorset and ended up in hospital. When he was well enough to travel back home to Yorkshire the wife was far too scared to drive back, so the MD of the company he worked for sent his chauffeur down on the train so that he could drive the couple back to Yorkshire.

It was such a lovely thing for him to do, but made me realise as a new driver that I would never want to be in that position.

I've just need through something similar, but with my Dad. My mum recently had a stroke, she's recovering, but her eyesight has been affected and she can't use the computer any more. Turns out my Dad, who only retired in 2013, can't or won't shop online. I live abroad, and when DM was in hospital, my DF was sending me vast lists of things I needed to buy to make her stay better/that she would need when she came home.

They also both refuse to do online food shopping, so they were relying on the neighbours to go to the supermarket for them. I even offered to set them up from a distance, but they wouldn't hear of it. I'm seriously worried about what will happen when they get older or one of them dies :(. they can't cope on their own and I'm 3000 miles away.

Changechangychange
@Stratfordplace Elphaba is correct - even joint accounts are frozen once one of the partners deaths has been registered with the bank.

DM had to forge DF’s signature and transfer the balance into her own account, or she would have had no access to her own cash for six months. And DF had an extremely straightforward will, of which she was sole beneficiary. Luckily his pension kicked in quickly, and she was working, so she managed until probate went through.

No they're not. I went to the bank the day after my husband died, with a copy of his will. They took his name off the account, arranged for me to be sent a new cheque book, and I carried on using the account as normal. There was no break in service at all.

It depends on the bank and it depends how much money is in the account. One bank were cool as cucumbers and quietly dropped DFIL’s name off their joint account with nothing but a copy of the death certificate. A supermarket bank immediately cancelled the credit card they’d had for donkeys years, even though she’d been a second card holder the whole time. When we tried to re-apply for another one for her immediately to at least get her loyalty points back we discovered she has zero credit rating. She is a non-person financially because she has never had anything in her own name. That was a really troubling discovery.

Other banks also insist on probate for wildly varying amounts - some are happy to take the will at face value if the balance is under £10,000. Anything over £1000 and Virgin Money insist on probate.

The worst has been his civil service pension. They cut it off completely as soon as we informed them of the death, but won’t be evaluating how much she’s entitled to until May, which is just outrageous (because COVID delays, blah, blah). Fortunately she does have her own pension, but they don’t know that. She could have been dependent upon his. And since she has no credit rating, getting a loan to tide herself over would have been impossible. Potential nightmare (but thank God for gold-plated baby boomer pensions and savings).

Thanks @ElphabaTheGreenelpha, I didn't realise that banks behaved differently from each other in this situation. I assumed the legalities of it were standard.

I feel bad now for switching from Barclays, who were just wonderful that day. I actually stayed with them for years longer than I would have, based simply on the actions of my branch's staff on that occasion. If I'd known that other banks would have given me grief, I'd have been even more grateful!

NatWest were/still arses, FYI.

They were fine when I had to close down my mum’s single account, but they’re being right jobsworths with DMIL/DFIL’s joint account.

For us all the banks - and there were a lot of accounts with small amounts were fine and varied in their policies to a reasonable degree - but Santander were obscene requiring all sorts of unreasonable security to release a fucking tiny amount of cash - those bastards caused so much grief.

My mum in her 80s is far more tech savvy than I am.
My husband has always dealt with finances, because that’s his professional expertise. I managed my independent life before we married over 3 decades ago, presumably I could again. I do the practical stuff, at which he’s rubbish 😁
I’m his beneficiary, estate and pensions, everything is in joint names, including his bank accoubt - though I have my own too and wouldn’t interfere with his outside of emergencies - he has written absolutely everything down, account numbers, passwords, contact names etc for everything he deals with, household and personal.
I would probably feel a bit daunted after so many years if he pre-deceases me but I have all the information I need.

It sounds like excessive specialisation over time and not a gender thing.

@CommandoDog

For us all the banks - and there were a lot of accounts with small amounts were fine and varied in their policies to a reasonable degree - but Santander were obscene requiring all sorts of unreasonable security to release a fucking tiny amount of cash - those bastards caused so much grief.

Santander were brilliant with DMIL - they were the ones who made no fuss about turning their joint current account into a single (and they had five figures in that account )

It must be down to each individual branch. What a schmozzle.