Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

HilaryThorpe

Starting the Women's Movement does not of itself negate all the miriad of (different) problems younger women have had to face since....

No it doesn't Bubblebu, but the equal opportunities legislation that came out of it might have helped? And it does rather demonstrate that we were not a generation of doormats?

My mum was widowed in the mid 80’s.

It was a huge shock how many banks, shops, credit card companies, higher purchase agencies etc simply refused to deal with a woman, especially one that left husbands salary blank on application forms.

Even me, single in the early 90’s struggled to get estate agents and the like to take me seriously. One bloke on a shop (pre-online of course) actually told me everything on his books was under offer, and no I couldn’t view that one in the window. Similarly with dfs and the like, i was simply ignored by salesmen. Thank god for John Lewis who took a lot of time and found me a lovely sofa. Car sales too often didn’t bother if I didn’t have a man with me.

So for that generation I can see how much would have been left to the husband.

@HilaryThorpe some are assertive of course, but the majority of women in my mum's generation ( nearing 70) that I know, I would not describe as assertive and many appear to be in far more traditional type relationships.

We are still far from being equal. I can only hope we get nearer in my daughter's generation....

when asked what daily medications they take & what they are for I've had replies like 'I don't know, the missus knows'!

Oh god, the men who leave their health to their wife! It’s these guys who have no idea what the big scar over their heart was for, or when it was done (bypass? valve surgery? No idea, and seem very surprised when it is pointed out to them). No clue what medications they are on. Seem surprised to learn they are diabetic, despite being on insulin.

Wives drag them to their hospital appointments, and do all the talking. If you ask them anything, it is deferred to their wife.

This isn’t an age thing - I’ve met men in their 20s and 30s who bring their mum in with them to do all the talking. It’s just complete disengagement with their own health.

Wow Hilary!
That is quite a claim to make.

Of course the 60s were revolutionary however assuming a vainglorious victory on behalf of your generation might just alienate you from younger women who have not necessarily experienced the sunny uplands of your starting of the Women's Movement.......

If anything many young women have found it has in a lot of ways added new expectations on top of what was there before......

@bluebluezoo same here - DM used to find it infuriating that she would literally be told to get lost and send her husband in, when she had a fair amount of money to spend.

She tried to buy a new car, and wanted a specific model of Audi. Knew exactly what she wanted, just wanted to go in and hand over her money. The local dealership told her “they didn’t deal with monkeys, send the organ grinder”, ie her husband. She went to the one up the road (who were lovely), and took great delight in doing a Julia Roberts “big mistake! Massive!” on the original dealer’s forecourt a couple of weeks later.

@Hathertonhariden

Yes, they were the first generation to be working outside the home and starting to be able to run their own affairs rather than their husbands and fathers controlling them.

However you have to remember that the men of that generation were equally faced with being the first to be losing roles that they had taken for granted and that this was a huge adjustment for them. Many men found it very difficult to let women into their domain (and let's face it many younger men still do).

Your FIL may be lovely but perhaps his controlling that aspect of their lives gave him the security that he still had a role to play as the provider/protector despite his wife working.

Not really. The OP's MIL would have been born in 1950 or 1951. She would have been a teenager during the 60s and started work in the early 70s. There were plenty of women like my mum (born early 1930s) who worked most of their lives, albeit often with a break to look after young children. My mum, for example, was a teacher who gave up her job when pregnant with me but was back supply teaching on and off when she could get childcare, four or five years later. She got a part-time job once my brother and I were both at school. Full-time a few years after that. This seemed fairly typical of most of my friends' mothers. A minority were SAHMs but most were working full or part-time once their children were secondary age. My MIL (born 1917), similar pattern.

I have to say, my Dad behaves like a child about certain matters. He lets my Mum make lots of decisions or looks to her before answering.

If I ask him if he wants seconds, he looks to my Mum for permission. If I ask if he’d like to help himself to a dish, he would prefer my Mum serves him as he’s not confident doing it or taking the right amount. Sometimes if I ask if he’d like something, he asks my Mum if he likes it. It’s a bit odd and like a small child with their Mum.

He doesn’t decide if he needs new socks or pants but my Mum decides. He wouldn’t dream of thinking about it and new ones appear isn’t he drawer when he needs them, just like the clean washing each week.

This is all a working class man thing I think. He moved from living with his Mum and Dad who did all the domestic stuff to living with my Mum as he got married and she did all the domestic stuff. He was never at college living away an d never house shared etc or cooked for himself, yet has always been looked after by a woman.

Isn’t it an odd thing he more you look at it. Yes, some women have zero idea about finances etc, but also it applies to some men. Lots of men don’t seem to have taken responsibility for their health or things like clothing or food.

I think the longer people were single or lived alone, the more capable or at least confident to try new things or believe they could manage to learn them they are.

I’m just thinking now of how many older women (and younger too) leave all the driving or motorway driving to the man.

So I guess @weightedblanketlove that your mum's circle of friends might not now be as assertive as they once were? It is hard to judge without knowing people when they were younger. It is easy to lose confidence with age and particularly with bereavement.
Don't wish to derail the thread, but will just leave this here.
"The scope and the strength of the movement was such that the government could not ignore the demands of the feminists and was forced to take actions. The movement thus contributed to major transformations of institutions through the passing of landmark laws39 notably: The Equal Pay Act of 1970 that came into force in 1975;40 The Employment Protection Act of 1975 which made provisions for the protection of pregnant women in terms of maternity leave and pay; The Sex Discrimination Act of 1975 which aimed to promote equality between women and men and to provide equal opportunities to both sexes. It also established the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC) to which grievances could be taken in case of unequal treatment; The Domestic Violence and Matrimonial Proceedings Act of 197641 which enabled married women to obtain a court order against their husbands; The Housing Act (Homeless Persons) of 1978 which provided accommodation for victims of domestic violence."

they were the first generation to be working outside the home

Um, no. Maybe for middle-class women in office jobs (even then, no, there were female secretaries in the 1920s/30s), but working class women have always worked. Who do you think housemaids and charwomen were? Nurses? Nannies? Teachers? Shop workers, seamstresses, laundresses?

DGM was in service until she got married, then worked in a shop full-time. DM and her sisters all got office jobs in the civil service at 16, and stayed in them until they were forced to leave when they had babies (literally weren’t allowed to stay on).

Not all older women, no.
My mate's mum left alone when husband died (both 70s). She had no clue about anything relating to bills, household income, never learned to drive. She was fucked and if it wasn't for her son my mate, she would have drowned. So vulnerable. She's gone too now sadly.
My mil doesn't drive but is just as involved in house admin as my fil. They're late 70s early 80s. She'll sort out issues by calling people. He's more inclined to use the Internet.
I think alot of that generation had the man just deal with all that. I'm sure some of that gen. couldn't get mortgage as a female... 🙄

I mean by law, not because they were incapable of getting a mortgage back in the day.

Elphabathegreen the person you mentioned whose husband died and apparently could not access his money or savings account and so had to borrow the money for his funeral had wrong information. Funeral directors are able to access accounts to pay for a deceased’s funeral.

As they were married there would also have possibly been a mirror will, whereby all assets get transferred to the surviving spouse.

I think plenty of people in long term relationships settle into their own ' jobs' with each one doing what they're best suited to.
If her husband has dealt with finances/ bookings etc etc for years, methods of doing these things have changed dramatically. Basically if you haven't had to get to grips with technology you would be pretty lost.
I bet she is absolutely competent at the role she took on in the marriage, and he would be just as lost in those areas if it were the other way round.

@Stratfordplace

Elphabathegreen the person you mentioned whose husband died and apparently could not access his money or savings account and so had to borrow the money for his funeral had wrong information. Funeral directors are able to access accounts to pay for a deceased’s funeral.

As they were married there would also have possibly been a mirror will, whereby all assets get transferred to the surviving spouse.

That wasn’t me, Stratford - it was another poster.

Also - in the case of significant assets and savings, stuff doesn’t just automatically transfer to the spouse even with an up to date will. It has to go through probate. Shitty bloody process which all ends up transferring everything to the spouse anyway if that’s what the will says.

My mother is younger at 64 but whilst she's an intelligent well educated women who had a career, she acts like she has never seen a computer, refuses to touch a laptop, definitely won't email or look after back accounts and just about manages to use her own cash point card.

Part of it is that she is 'allowed' this behaviour from my dad who sorts out everything that's life admin.

I would say whilst I also have a manager job I look after my bank account and mortgage but leave the stuff like insurances , car and utilities to my husband as I have little interest in them.

But I do all the school admin and things for children, so I can do things just choose not to get involved

I think some people women are just lazy. My MIL will ring me and say my iPads not working. So I'll say ok well check if it's accidentally on aeroplane mode or try turning it off and on. I'll start to tell her how and where to look and she'll say oh I'll bring it over for you to fix it next week. So she'd rather wait a week than bother to learn to do it herself. She has different people to do different stuff for her. She worked until recently as a nurse and I have no idea how really. She seems to have a skill of getting people to do stuff for her, poor single older women. She really flutters her eyelashes.

@Stratfordplace Elphaba is correct - even joint accounts are frozen once one of the partners deaths has been registered with the bank.

DM had to forge DF’s signature and transfer the balance into her own account, or she would have had no access to her own cash for six months. And DF had an extremely straightforward will, of which she was sole beneficiary. Luckily his pension kicked in quickly, and she was working, so she managed until probate went through.

*she forged his signature before she told them he’d died, if that wasn’t clear

@3raincloud I find that extraordinary. I'm 61 and still working full-time in a professional role (just taking a breather and having a coffee).

Perhaps this is one of the benefits of never having a joint account? I deal with my car; DH deals with his. He deals with France (his French is much more fluent than mine); I deal with the UK end. If anything happened to one of us each of us knows where the paperwork is and could deal with it.

Interestingly MIL had never opened the post when FIL was alive despite being a deputy HT. She still doesn't and DH visits monthly to deal with it for her because she simply won't. My mother oth deals with all the life admin and dealt with my stepfather's business admin until he sold it. They are both 84. Similarly my grannie started running the farm in WW2 when her brothers were called up (I have no idea why her father didn't take over as her parents lived there and would have been late 50s) and carried on until dementia got the better of her. Grandad did the business related side.

I don't know much about MILS parents' set up but believe DH's grandma was pretty hands on.

What's interesting is that friends whose mothers were teachers (as per the op's MIL) often relate their mothers are very intimidated by the telephone - perhaps it wasn't a principal channel of communication up to the mid 90s and MIL has certainly said she would not have been prepared to use a computer in relation to teaching - she will not use one now, or her mobile.

even joint accounts are frozen once one of the partners deaths has been registered with the bank

This isn’t the case for all banks. When my dad died they just removed his name from the account, it was never frozen.

"Oh god, the men who leave their health to their wife! It’s these guys who have no idea what the big scar over their heart was for, or when it was done (bypass? valve surgery? No idea, and seem very surprised when it is pointed out to them). No clue what medications they are on. Seem surprised to learn they are diabetic, despite being on insulin."

I've never seen this. What I have seen is men who say things like "my wife doesn't let me have sugar in my tea since my heart attack" as if it was up to them, they'd happily have another one. I presumed it was to do with the idea that it's not macho to eat healthily so they pretend they're forced into it. Same as how some men pretend their wives force them to watch soaps.

Because I lived either alone, or with housemates and not a partner until I was 30, I think I learned to do all the jobs, because I had to and there was no-one else to do them.

Now my DH and I each ‘specialise’ in certain household tasks, but I feel I could do most things if I had to and I could learn to do them if I had to. I have confidence because I had to do the things and learn new things so know I could again.

If you’ve never driven on the motorway, because ever since you could drive, a partner did the motorway driving for you, or changed the lightbulbs, you might decide they are things you can’t do. Driving is a particular one where people, lose confidence.

I think working class people often have maintained stronger gender distinctions. The phase of living independently before being part of a couple has often been missing which is when lots of skills get learned. Many working class men have seen certain things as the job if the woman and never had to cook for themselves or buy clothes or plan too much about food or childcare etc. That’s not to say they don’t or didn’t do any childcare, but often did what they were told by their wife. Their wife also booked their dentist appointments, and in lots of cases was responsible for much of the social life or organising Christmas etc. Men might do some DIY or organise stuff to do with the car. Women often managed the day to day finances and bills even if a man was handing or a weekly wedge of cash.

I think many men have retained some kind of infantile persona through life...especially working class men. They need to be fed and looked after by a woman. Making decisions about certain things to do with children or schools or childcare is very much for women to do and men like to suggest they are incapable in these areas, or perhaps become incapable through lack of practice. As I mentioned, my Dad looks to my Mum to see if he can have 2nds at dinner and to let her serve him the right sized portion, as if they are things he is incapable of. At the Doctors, my Mum certainly goes in and with him and speaks for him or my Dad looks to my Mum if the Doctor asks a Q, to be sure he is giving the right answer. It is my Mum who has the phone passed to her for family chats and my Mum relays the conversation to him. My Dad might shout the odd comment, but if on the phone, dries up within a couple of minutes. My Mum organises their social events and my Dad just tags along quite happily. One one level my Dad is the man of the house...he can service the car, he mows the grass, empties the bins and can do lots of pretty good DIY. But he lacks confidence in making decisions and always looks to my Mum. She doesn’t dominate him and encourages him and especially when out, would always look to demonstrate he is making his own decisions and wouldn’t want to shame him, it essentially she is making the decisions because that’s the way it’s evolved and now he isn’t able to. If she were to go before him or be incapacitated, he would be totally she’ll shocked and find life extremely difficult. If it were the other way, my Mum would of course be devastated too as they are devoted to each other, but she would manage and find a way to a new life.

I think it’s often women who can cope more. So many more women are widowed and lots have had to live 20 odd years alone and cope. It often seem to be the widowed men who are very keen to find a companion and partner pretty quickly who can’t manage in their own....often emotionally as much as practically.

"He doesn’t decide if he needs new socks or pants but my Mum decides. He wouldn’t dream of thinking about it and new ones appear isn’t he drawer when he needs them, just like the clean washing each week."

I was watching an old episode of Last of the Summer Wine and a man's affair came to light because he had a new jumper. He had to hide the jumper as it seemed impossible for him to pretend he'd bought it himself. I suppose it must have really not been the done thing for married men to buy their own clothes.