Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

[quote Gwenhwyfar]"@Alsohuman it's just a factual form though - any household member could complete it , surely it doesn't need a within household consultation?"

There are plenty of questions that are personal/subjective, the ethnicity one for example. Apparently these days if you do it online you can do certain parts yourself even if someone else is doing the rest of it.[/quote]
@Gwenhwyfar my DH and I have been together over 20 years so would be able to answer ethnicity questions for each other and for our children for the census. I understand the composition of some households would be different and more complex to complete the census. It wouldn't have bothered me in the slightest if DH had completed it on behalf of the household and he was pleased that I completed it (without consultatng him).

*consulting

Still working through the threads.DH and I have our 45th anniversary this year. Both sets of parents long gone. Always had a joint acct and discussed finances. I worked in various aspects of the financial sector. He dealt with a large budget as an LA manager. When I was a SAHM I dealt with the bank but everything is done online now and he has a notebook with passwords. He came from a large household so no stranger to domestic stuff.

I visited my mum today. Haven't seen her since June, because they didn't want to take the risk at Christmas.

Based on this thread, I persuaded my step dad to get a newer phone, with apps, and my mum agreed to learn how to use google and say the banking app.

This is huge progress.

Oblomov, that’s great news. Well done!
I think sometimes they really want to move forward with these things but don’t know how to start. Sometimes they are very resistant, but often if offered specific help will take it.

Mum died in January. DSF is almost helpless. Learning fast but I had no idea how much she did the day to day stuff. It has been a lot of work to support him to learn how to do it himself and he often gets overwhelmed by it all.

@VaVaGloom, I can see why you think like this.
However, when we did the census, the dcs answered in sometimes surprising ways
Eg Dc1 born in Britain, always lived in Britain and with a British father said he didn’t see himself as British, whereas Dc2 does.

Basically, we might have lived 20+ years together, have dcs who are nearly adult or young adult and we would have got it wrong

Schools and colleges now run lessons for school leavers in lots of life skills.

We need them for the elderly too who haven’t managed to pick them up.

My parents did attend a few sessions at their local library about IT a few years ago. My Mum found it a bit useful but my Dad found it too advanced. He really is at the stage of needing to learn to find the ‘on’ switch and how to manipulate a mouse. The jargon means nothing to him and his ability to simply type is incredibly slow as he isn’t familiar with a keyboard. Looking at screens and just spotting something someone is referring to that he needs to look at, takes him ages. The classes were lost on him.

Perhaps there are already websites devoted to this...what you should make sure both spouses can do before hitting 70....do they exist?

If I was drawing it up I’d put on it:

• know how much money there is in total and where it all is, including account names, numbers and login details.
• knowing all the suppliers of utilities, insurances, car tax, any subscriptions and how much they are, when they are due and any login details.
• know how to do internet shopping
• know how to access bank accounts and make payments
• know where the wills are kept and solicitor details
• have talked about funeral wishes
• know what is bought in a typical week in supermarket and what it costs roughly
• know how to operate cooker, microwave, washing machine, dishwasher, alarm, tv, any digi box or on demand TV
• know how to operate the landline and the mobile and know the numbers
• know where the tel numbers of suppliers,friends and family are kept
• know how to operate lawnmower, change light bulbs, where fuse box is and how to change fuse
• know how to out petrol in car, add screen wash and oil
• know where details of car insurance, breakdown etc are
• know where clothes are usually bought from
• know who presents are bought for for birthdays and Christmas and roughly how much spent
• know how to cook at least 4/5 simple meals
• know how to lock and unlock all doors and windows and garage
• know about regular workmen and costs like window cleaners, grass cutters, etc
• know how to operate and programme central heating

I’m sure there are lots more.

@SecretWitch

My 80 yr old mother runs an internet business from her home. She has every Apple product on the market and manages them them herself. She and my father were both closely involved in their banking business. She may have become extremely self reliant as her mother died when she was just 16. She became the care taker for her three younger siblings..

A thread such as this is just one opportunity to take a swipe at older women.

Good for her. There are some people who really adapt and thrive under change and it’s really positive to see. I wish my parents did but I am afraid at much younger than your DM they abandoned technology, in my dads case it was one of the first symptoms of dementia. Neither of them had to care for their elderly parents, I hope my experience of becoming the parent to parents gives me insight to my future and how I can keep it stressfree for my children.

My parents' next door neighbour lost her husband and it became clear very quickly that she was in a similar situation. Her late husband had dealt with all the admin, driven her round (though she could drive she just hadn't for years), he even did all the cooking as "he enjoyed it". She didn't have the first idea how to organise a funeral, deal with bills etc. And she had no family to help, so my parents ended up doing it all for her while she just got upset at how "hopeless" she was. My parents didn't even know her that well but she would knock in their door, upset, whenever a letter arrived or she couldn't fathom something in the house.

She did, to be fair, try to learn how to cope once the shock wore off a bit. She decided to drive herself somewhere, ended up in the motorway going in the wrong direction, then didn't know how to pull off again until she reached the end of the motorway over 150 miles later!

Her health deteriorated quite quickly after she lost her husband and she was diagnosed with dementia. In retrospect, I think she had been deteriorating for quite some time and her husband had gradually taken over doing everything as it was easier than her getting stressed over tasks. It was a relief for my parents when she went into residential care tbh. I don't want to alarm you, OP, but it may be worth keeping an eye out and taking her to a GP if you suspect anything similar is going on here.

To the earlier poster who said "I call these sort of women, little women," - aren't you a peach.

"my DH and I have been together over 20 years so would be able to answer ethnicity questions for each other and for our children for the census."

As I said, there's an element of choice in those questions and there's also an option to not answer. Someone whose form is being filled in by someone else might not even realise that.

"how to change fuse"

I don't even know what this even means, presuming you don't mean the fuse inside a plug.

Sympathy to you and your family ElphabaTheGreen on the loss of your DFIL. I think you are just trying to express a certain level of frustration in a safe place. You and your husband obviously care very much for your MIl and it can be difficult to keep your patience. It dose seem a lot of her confusion may be due to grief - it is exhausting.

I am not in the same circumstances at all being alone so have to deal with my own frustrations and anxieties by myself. I am just getting over not having the internet for most of today, it started dipping out at the weekend and I had to troubleshoot the problem several times, early this morning my access completely failed. To cut the story short on contacting my provider the problem was not with them and we worked out that my computer had somehow deleted the necessary driver for wifi access. My point is that I then had to decide whether to take the risk of totally resetting the computer or trying to find an open IT repairer with the inconvenience and expense of that. When you are alone you can feel extremely impatient and anxious but there is no point in expressing it. I had to make a decision because I rely on the internet for outside contact and also I am changing provider next week so need a working machine. Anyway I took the plunge and put the reset in process, took several hours and deleted numerous programmes (including mumsnet) but it worked - here I am!

On the one hand, I am pleased I have saved time and expense and knew enough to follow the instructions on screen, on the other hand I understand many people of my age (60s) and other ages would get discombobulated and just give up or get in a rage.

Until last year I was a volunteer course assistant for older people who had never used a computer or needeed help with their CV for job searching. So many people in their 50s could not remember even basic details - school, employment - or from week to week the basics we had done on the computer but being impatient would have been of no use.

I do remember being reduced to tears when first faced with a computer back in the 80s, floppy discs and all so would never have imagined I would have been able to do what I did today without help. We can all find ourselves in the position of frustrated learner at some time and it can be harder when you are older. I would like to learn to drive but am too terrified to even begin and if I did the slightest error would unnerve me completely. So I don't.

@SecretWitch It isn't a swipe at older women. It's recognising that some older women/people have been left behind as technology has advanced. It's accepting that some people aren't involved in household administration.

[quote Changechangychange]@Stratfordplace Elphaba is correct - even joint accounts are frozen once one of the partners deaths has been registered with the bank.

DM had to forge DF’s signature and transfer the balance into her own account, or she would have had no access to her own cash for six months. And DF had an extremely straightforward will, of which she was sole beneficiary. Luckily his pension kicked in quickly, and she was working, so she managed until probate went through.[/quote]
No they're not. I went to the bank the day after my husband died, with a copy of his will. They took his name off the account, arranged for me to be sent a new cheque book, and I carried on using the account as normal. There was no break in service at all.

I would like to learn to drive but am too terrified to even begin and if I did the slightest error would unnerve me completely. So I don't.

@cateycloggs - please do it.

My mum had exactly the same feelings about it when she was widowed in her mid 60s. It took her a few years but after three failed driving tests and all the emotional setbacks involved, she finally did it. The catalyst in convincing her was being involved in a car crash when a friend was driving her.

She's able to get herself to doctor appointments, for emergency treatment of a deep cut one time, to the airport and to Ikea, to the garden centre and the home improvement place. She loves the feeling of independence.

*convincing her that driving herself was necessary and desirable...

I'm shocked. I can do anything. I am competent with all technology. I did the probate for both my parents. I wired the house for Sky before Wifi, I have decorated, tiled kitchens and bathrooms and laid wooden floors. If DH died, I would know exactly the financial situation and would know what to do.
That being said, my DD runs classes for older people to learn how to use a tablet or laptop. Some can't even switch it on. Some are younger than me. It's very much an individual thing. I think that some women have been spoiled and effectively babied by their partners, who have done everything for them. The little woman syndrome. Hopefully she has no dementia and can pick these things up fast, otherwise she is stuck in some sort of childhood phase, dependent on others to think for her.

@SecretWitch It isn't a swipe at older women. It's recognising that some older women/people have been left behind as technology has advanced. It's accepting that some people aren't involved in household administration

That is exactly how I read the OP's first post.

I mentioned earlier that my SIL has played the "helpless woman" all her life. She is perfectly capable, but has decided that she didn't want to learn how to work the video recorder, so her husband had to set it. She knows perfectly well how to use a computer, but won't do any online ordering, she gets other people to do it for her. She gets other people to do any other online form filling for her as well.

Her late husband was an alcoholic and was in residential care for many years before he died so she has had to do things for herself for years.

The problem is now that her learned helplessness has made her life so much smaller because her adult children aren't always around to do things for her.

IMO it isn't "I can't" on her part but "I don't want to learn"

@ElphabaTheGreen

Just as another personal example as to how my ‘baseline’ of older women is the assumption of full independence is my American aunt on my DM’s side. She posts regularly on Facebook, usually memes involving penises, swears and her hatred of the Republican party. The family had to actively talk her out of her regular plane trips between New York and St Louis to visit family during the pandemic, but she put up a hell of a fight. She’s 96.

I've just come back from visiting my late husband's 92 year old aunt. She lives independently, does all her own admin, and knows her way around her computer. As soon as home computers became a thing, she asked my DH to teach her how to use one.

Maybe the secret is being single all her life. She's never been dependent on anyone, or looked to other people to do things for her. She'd just finished mowing the lawn when I got there, had just finished redrafting her will, and was wondering if she'd be able to visit our Australian relatives again next year.

DM similar, said the other day its too complicated to choose a new energy supplier. Suspect current energy provider has them on a nice high tariff whittling away my inheritance the bastards

She never used to be like this - was super competent single mum who did everything from taxes to fuse changes. Age and a man who has undermined her for years have not helped her retain these attributes.

Thanks, mathanxiety, and well done your mum especially having been involved in an accident. to tell the truth I also simply cannot afford it now. I always say if I won the lottery which I do not do, I would take an intensive course and probably now buy an electric car. The only car I notice and like is a Jaguar. In my family my 4 brothers all learnt to drive and used it for work one way or another, 2 sisters and me never did.

Hmm I'm in my forties and wouldnt know where to put screenwash. I wouldnt really know what to do when someone dies either. I would Google both things if I did need to know. I guess your MIL opted to ask her son instead.

My mum is in 70s. She's pretty competent at life stuff. She never learned to drive so that's the main area of dependency, although she can navigate public transport.

Who checks your screenwash @PrincessTuna?