Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

My dh in his 40'd barely knows how to do the life admin , he could do it if he had to but I tend to do it as work less hrs and am better at it

I let my dh do a lot of the driving as well as I hate it and he likes it , sometimes its just that simple

@Wiltshire90

Not sure why you're getting such snooty replies OP. My mother is computer literate but has no confidence to do any life admin. She's only 65 and it drives me bonkers, particularly as I know that when my dad dies I'll be doing it all for her. Even something simple such as paying car tax she says she can't do and wants me to do for her - but she can buy things online from John Lewis! I honestly think it's learned behaviour and now a habit.

My mother is the same age and very similar, except she is divorced. You would think that she would step up to handle the responsibilities of life admin, but she acts helpless and expects family members to do it all for her. My mother worked for a major bank and used their computer system for years, but she feels that dealing with car issues or internet providers is beyond her capabilities. It seems like learned helplessness to me. I don't know what the solution is.

I think it is more that, in a long marriage, roles and jobs can become defined andthe responsibility of just one of the partners exclusively.

It works, the jobs get done efficiently, each plays to their strengths and the alance of work seems fair. But it can definitely lead to one or both partners losing whatever skills and knowledge they had about the other person's jobs which is a massive problem if one dies or becomes unable to do their jobs for whatever reason.

My very intelligent and otherwise capable dad had never used their current washing machine or prepared more than a very basic snack or done any cooking other than reheating something over about 30 years when my mum's dementia meant she could no longer cope with these chores. He has learnt and now does it all but required a lot of help to do so and still does odd (to us) inexplicable things at times!

My mum also did all the house admin, calendars, birthdays etc and he had a secretary at work to do all that side of life there. Again, he has learnt, andnow does it all, but it was a steep learning curve born of necessity, and thankfully happened over a couple of years as the dementia tightened its grip. If she had died suddenly, the lack of knowledge would have been even more evident.

I think it is a failure, or a refusal (understandable) to plan ahead and consider 'what if?' which we can all be guilty of at times.

A lesson to us all to keep up our skills and independence in all areas as far as is humanly possible!

DH and I aren't that much younger 60 and 61 (almost) and still working. Whilst we have had traditional domestic infrastructure with him taking over the bills when I gave up work for 8 years, we have always maintained the following key files. His personal stuff: bank accounts, share certificates, registrars, pensions, life insurance, etc. My personal stuff with the same and a House file with utilities, council tax, insurance, etc.

Therefore if something were to happen to one of us we would have everything to hand.

For the pp who knew of someone who had no access to money whilst her dh salted it away - presumably she had her pension?

@Gwenhwyfar

" I have also noticed many women over 70, lack skills like driving, swimming, being able to ride a bike, and some other things many people can do."

I'm surprised by this. I would have thought that women that age would have learned how to ride a bike as a child. I can imagine that if you haven't kept active, done any swimming or cycling for years that you may not be in good enough condition to take it up again at 70, but that's not the same as never having been able to.

Interesting. My dad was born in 1935 and never learned to swim or ride a bike. I always assumed that it was because of the war during the period of his childhood when learning these skills would be normal. I really wish I’d asked him now!

@Gwenhwyfar some people that age would never of owned a bike when young and therefore not bothered
Also swimming if they were never taken or taught ,my auntie in her 70's learnt to swim just recently as she never went as a child and then as had kids not something she prioritised paying for then suddenly the years have gone by

A lot of what you describes sounds like my MIL except hers is relatively recent ( she’s been widowed for decades and was able to do all these things pre covid).
I wouldn’t rule out cognitive decline, particularly the being able to read letters. Hopefully it is just grief reaction but keep an open mind. Your FIL may have been masking it before he died so that no one noticed

This sounds like my MIL. Widowed at 62, held a driving licence since 18, was insured on the car but hadn't driven for over 20 years because FIL always drove.... she couldn't then do it and hasn't driven since even though it makes her life so difficult.

Had never drawn money out of a cash point (WTAF?) and still goes into her bank to get money out - I only discovered this a couple of years ago when she walked past 3 cash machines to get a bus to "her" bank.

DH ended up getting an LPA for her so he could deal with things on her behalf.

This was 10 years ago and she has got a bit better. She has learned the things she wants to know but has refused to learn the bits she doesn't want to do (tech, BT, changing of light bulbs, any DIY). She joined U3A and learned a bit more about computers/ email and online shopping though. They had a shared email address and shared mobile phone - the voicemail was still FIL's voice for about 5 years after he died.

She also hasn't got a clue about finances and also asked questions about whether she can afford x,y and z. She still checks with DH before making any large purchases (she has plenty of money and a very good spouses final salary pension). She acts like she is on the bones of her arse.

I do think FIL was to blame - he never encouraged her to drive or to know about their finances. He acted like she was a timid little mouse and she never went anywhere without him. Even when he was diagnosed with cancer he didn't go through things with her - she literally had no clue. Their main bank account was in FIL's sole name - he put some pocket money into her account each month. They did shopping together.

Before he died I did get him to make their main bank account a joint one so at least she had access to some money.

I am a probate solicitor and it is quite common - but I see men like it too. Not with practical things but bank accounts and bills - one client almost passed out with shock when I told him how much money their wife had squirrelled away.

for anyone cognitively normal (and not in pieces over a bereavement) it is seriously dumb not to know how the important things in your own life work. That applies to both sexes and whatever age. 'scatty' is just 'cant be bothered'.

A warning to all. Find out TODAY.

I have a now 60-something friend who never learnt to ride a bike or to swim as her religious father didn’t approve of girls doing those things. Similarly she didn’t know that you could save money in a savings account and get some interest as her father didn’t believe girls should know anything about money as it wasn’t for them to know about. When her father died her mother had never ever written a cheque, as she had only ever used cash given to her by her husband. You can imagine how difficult her mother found living as a widow.

i would hazzard a guess that the more well off you are in terms of assets / lack of major debt etc (not day to day bills) the more likley you are to feel comfortable just "not knowing" about stuff and letting someone else get on with it.

after all hypothetically if you thought any accommodation costs could not be met (mortgage etc) or you discovered / suspected that where you live is actually given as surity to a third party meaning you could potentially be homeless at some point in the future AND you dont for whatever reason have blind faith in your OH managing all of that for you....

that that can be quite an incentive to suddenly have to learn those things.
Or if you are so wealthy you would have a plan B in such a serious scenario maybe even that would not drag you away from "all I do is buy things online from John Lewis" lifestyle.

[quote littlepattilou]@ElphabaTheGreen

I totally agree with you, and don't know why you are getting such a hard time on this thread. Could be because it was a generalisation that all women over a certain age are like that. I know you didn't mean to be offensive though. I mean, I am not offended, but clearly quite a few people are!!!

I know a few women over 70, who are perfectly OK with dealing with tradesmen, and dealing with MOTs and booking the car in for maintenance, and who deal with the bills, and 'life admin.' But tbh it's not that many.

In most couples in that age group, (and older,) it is (and always has been) the husband who deals with everything financial. I mean EVERYTHING. He has complete control of the finances. His wife often has no CLUE what is in the bank, and absolutely no access to it.

Just recently, an elderly gentleman near me died aged 83, and his wife is 78. Married for 60 years. Their grandaughter (57,) said her mother was a lost soul financially. She didn't even have access to the bank accounts. (Working account, and savings account.)

I spoke to her daughter a fortnight or so after the man had died, and it turned out, there was £175,000 in the savings, that she (his wife) knew NOTHING about. She had been pootling around in charity shop clothes, and cardigans and slippers and shoes that she had had for 20 years, because they had hardly any money, and he had squirrelled away £175,000.

Because everything was in HIS name, she couldn't touch a penny, and didn't even have money for food and bills. House is owned and paid for outright some 25 years ago, so no rent or mortgage, but she had NOTHING. She couldn't even pay for his funeral. The 57 y.o DD had to pay for it. She said when it's sorted, she will get it back, but that's what happened.

I assume it's sorted now, as it was six months ago, but this man's widow had such a lot of problems.

And I know/have known of a number of other women who had the same issues, over the years - they know nothing about the finances, and have no control of anything. (Mostly in couples aged 70+...) Not even JOINT control/joint accounts (or even individual accounts, and a joint one for bills, like many couples do now... )

I am not saying all women over 70 can't do shit, and don't know fuckall about anything... But to be all offended and sniffy, because the OP pointed out a basic fact, (that some women- particularly the over 70s, have no basic life admin skills, and know nothing about dealing with finances,) is just ridiculous. I have also noticed many women over 70, lack skills like driving, swimming, being able to ride a bike, and some other things many people can do.

It's quite sad, because it harks back to a day when women were kept in their place, and only taught the thing wimmin needed to know, like how to cook, clean, and raise children!

No-one is saying ALL women over 70 are like this, but some are, and it's ridiculous to suggest any different. Also, when their husband dies, it's usually left to the middle aged children, and 20-30 something grandchildren to sort everything out, if the man dies first (which he usually does!)[/quote]
I’m a bit baffled as to how people have completely misread my OP as, ‘Are all old women stupid and inept? Discuss.’ and screamed ‘ageist judgemental bitch!’

As (again...) I’ve said in at least one of my follow-ups, my baseline assumption was that the vast majority of 70 year olds could manage, or at least work out how to manage these things - male or female. My mum was fully self-sufficient when she died suddenly at the age of 72 and highly computer literate. She’d retired a good decade before DMIL. Given this recent experience with DMIL, I was, in fact, wondering if I’d completely overestimated the skills of an average 70 year old, did sex have anything to do with it, are there in fact younger people equally poorly equipped with these life skills (there clearly are). Lots of genuinely curious queries, but some posters just prefer a nice black and white football to lob about and feel superior over...

@ElphabaTheGreen

There are always posters on here who love to make a drama out of nothing.

No matter what you say, someone will pick it apart and call you all sorts of names. It's par for the course here........... I think some people are just bored, and love to stir up some drama.

Don't take it personally.

ElphabaTheGreen

ref your last post.

Of course it is not black and white.

But I think there are multiple aspects to your original post.
For example it is likely perfectly true that many people "delegate" in whatever form that takes daily tasks to a loved/trusted one - wisely or not.

But (fair or otherwise) is there not also an element of the being streetwise about it?
For example even in 2021 it is not impossible that (and sadly I would suggest in some parts of society it is common) tradesmen, utility providers, financial service providers (notwithstanding regulation to prevent etc), frankly anything you can buy - there will always be people out there who see a single (often but not aways woman) woman (who might be particularly elderly or might be particularly young looking) and think they can rip them off in some way.

sorry but it is true.
and that is why sometimes but not always a "couple" doing business with the outside world can be seen as more insulated from that.
of course there are exceptions, people of all sexes and ages who are prone to being duped. But the vulnerability element is not something to be ignored or necessarily criticised.

And for those of you wondering if an LPA is really worth it when you're young and fit...

There are two types of LPA - a finanaces one and a health and welfare one.

The finances one you can set up to either only kick in once you've lost the capacity to manage your own money, or, as DH, DMIL and I have done, allow your attorney to act on your behalf while you still have capacity but can't physically get to your money. The most obvious example is if you somehow get stuck overseas and maybe need someone to pay off a credit card to get you home.

DFIL walked into hospital and suffered catastrophic consequences as a result of a major op. He was mostly conscious and appeared to have some mental capacity, but could not physically access a laptop to manage the finances for DMIL. He was on an ITU during the height of the third wave of COVID so there was no way they were allowing any of us on to sit with him and go through it. His mobile phone contract came up for renewal during this time and without DH doing a dodgy and pretending to be him during a call, he would have been shunted from a £ contract to a £££ contract without any further consultation...if DMIL had been in a car accident or had to make a claim on the home insurance, what would she have done?

30-50 year olds on here who are not in control of the finances or bills - if your DP/DH/DW stepped off a curb tomorrow and ended up quadriplegic on an ITU, how would you manage? The £82 spent on an LPA would pay for itself.

The health and welfare one is a little more waffly as medical professionals aren't legally bound to it, especially if the requests included are a bit far fetched (e.g. as soon as I'm slightly dotty, withhold all food so I no longer live that way - they can't do that!). But at least you'll have someone to advocate on your behalf, knowing your wishes clearly, with a legal document dictated by you to back them up. Worth every penny of that £82, IMO. Again, it's a way of partially removing difficult decisions from your loved ones in a time of crisis.

We have relatives desperately trying to arrange urgent POA all the time in my hospital. It's so tragic and difficult at the most tragic and difficult time, and at the moment with COVID a painfully slow process. Just get it done!

@Gwenhwyfar

" I have also noticed many women over 70, lack skills like driving, swimming, being able to ride a bike, and some other things many people can do."

I'm surprised by this. I would have thought that women that age would have learned how to ride a bike as a child. I can imagine that if you haven't kept active, done any swimming or cycling for years that you may not be in good enough condition to take it up again at 70, but that's not the same as never having been able to.

My DM can’t ride a bike or swim - it just wasn’t something girls did in her area in the 50s/60s (working class mining village). There were no municipal pools, they were nowhere near the sea, nobody in their right mind would swim in a canal, and “nice” girls were not stripping off to swim with the boys anyway. Bikes - my DGF could ride a bike, DGM and the children couldn’t. I’m not sure if children’s bikes were really a thing then, certainly they couldn’t have afforded one. They just walked everywhere (ten miles round trip to the main town was a perfectly normal walk for them, even as kids).

DF could ride a bike - I never asked how. He was one of three boys though, so probably learned on an older brothers’ bike (certainly his own parents would never have taught him). He learned to swim as an adult in his 20s, in the 1970s, when him and DM started taking holidays to Devon and he wanted to go in the sea.

DMIL grew up near the sea and could always swim well. Could also ride a bike, but they were from a very jolly-hockeysticks Enid Blyton type of family, very different from my parents. I don’t think DFIL can do either, but possibly he could as a child.

Just to clarify the medical LPA / there’s a difference between an LPA and an Advance Directive/Advance Care Plan.

And Advance Care Plan is a palliative care document describing what you would want to happen at the end of your life, your goals and wishes. So, do you want to die at home, would you want to feed with risk in the event of impaired swallow, who is your next of kin and would you want to be kept alive in the event of a catastrophic brain injury. Not legally binding in any way, but useful for you and your next of kin to consider together what your views are about end of life care.

An Advance Directive is a legally binding document where you set out what care you would an would not accept (resuscitation, intubation, artificial nutrition, etc). You can refuse treatment but can’t demand it (as is the case when you are capacitous). May not be legally enforceable if it is sloppily worded, as many are.

A lasting power of attorney gives your next of kin the right to be consulted about your care when you are unable to consent. Doesn’t kick in until then, and needs to be activated. Once activated, they are basically you - they need to sign consent forms, they need to be consulted about all of your treatments in advance. They, like you, cannot demand treatment deemed to be futile, but can refuse treatment on your behalf. Please please please do not pick an LPA who lives at the other end of the country - we had this recently where the LPA refused to drive down and sign the consent form, so we couldn’t legally proceed with planned surgery. Your LPA is you, legally speaking, once it is active. They need to be available. People often pick their son in Aberdeen when they and their wife and two daughters live in Brighton, which is fucking pointless. Either pick somebody local, or don’t have one.

Not rtft but my mum lost her husband ( my dad) in her 50s. She was still working in an admin role. Although she didn't seem to be 'greiving' particularly, it hit her in different ways. The shock of losing a partner, teamed with suddenly having to negotiate loads of new systems - death benefits/ probate etc can be quite a shock. Add in sorting out other stuff your partner used to do like car insurance and it can feel overwhelming. I felt very tired and sort of brain foggy for a awhile whilst ' greiving. Making lots of stupid mistakes, not feeling motivated, not top of my game.

Give her time and support and revaulate after 3 months if something more is going on.

My Mum 74 when she died in 2019 was fairly similar - she deliberately stepped back from it. She knew how to use credit cards and also tap the card and what the limit was, but I reckon she was given a budget for food and spent that much give or take a bit and then anything more than that she would check with Dad before shopping for the OK. Any bills he dealt with and anything official. She wasn't that old fashioned about things but let him manage stuff she didn't like doing.

With regard to registering death, probate and putting things in sole name its not something many people have lots of experience of and it is overly complicated by the authorities in my view.

I would stick with teaching her some practical things in the first instance like car oil and screen washer etc and also tyres - checking the pressures and putting air in as well if necessary. Maybe where the water tap is at home and how to manage the circuit board for the electrics if it goes etc.

It may be a bit of forgetfulness when you lose someone you were that close to it does kind of stupify you and you feel slow to awaken to the realities. Patience and kindness is whats needed.

DH perhaps needs to do a budget with her so she knows what to spend each week in order to have a holiday each year, maybe suggest she holiday with a more worldly friend the first time etc.

I am dealing with my 3rd estate within 18 months at the moment and still feeling my way to be honest. Thankfully am only down as executor for one more relative at the moment. But its definitely made me rethink who might be mine!

I think as many older people have not learnt how to use computers /mobiles from a young age and become acquainted with them early on ,it becomes more difficult as the years go by.Getting married in the 60s /70s was very different for many women than it is now.Even well educated girls were often expected to give up working when a family came along .One friend of our family even went PT when she got married! Once they had settled down ,they were a bit stuck if they wanted to purchase anything big as they needed a mans signature even in the 70s! It wasnt until the late 80s that this stupid practice was stopped.Therefore it was customary for many women to leave financial matters to their husbands.Coupled with getting older ,grief and a lack of practice no wonder so many older ladies struggle!

Also to add, my mum tries to books tradesmen etc and doesn't always get things right. A few reasons

She's never had to as her Dad/ or later husband did all the diy maintaince of cars etc.

You ARE treated different as a woman ( espcially older single woman) by tradesmen. I get the vibe myself - 'can I speak to your husband?' No you can't as he's clueless and we'd be ripped off 😁

My generation and younger have been raised to have to be assertive. I don't think that is the case for older generations ( 60+) of course there are assertive woman but it didn't seem to be encouraged.

I don't entirely agree @GeronimoHate

Piles ons have always been a thing, for sure, but the picking apart of whether or not a poster is justified in asking for help/advice was only done in AIBU and sometimes Relationships/LTB threads.

I do feel there is a growing 'policing' of how people, who are mostly women, on here behave by a loud minority of posters.

I think the ride a bike / swim issues will have been true of some people, but I doubt that it was a majority. I am over 70 and pretty much everyone I knew had a bike. We also had weekly swimming lessons at school. My sister, now over 80, grew up in the war and she and all her friends were keen cyclists. I would say that we used our bikes far more than my children (now in their forties) used theirs.
But then both DH and I had careers in IT and juggled full-time work / housework / childcare / household management between us, (as did the vast majority of our friends) so I just don't recognise my generation in the stereotypes described by some posters.
It is an interesting question about whether those of us who experienced life as part of the generation under discussion know more about it than the people who are describing their own parents / family friends. I rather think we do.
I have every sympathy with the OP describing the difficult situation with her MiL - I just wish the title hadn't led to the inevitable ageist stereotyping displayed by some posters.

Yeah we are pretty assertive @weightedblanketlove. We started the Women's Movement in the 70s don't you know.