Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

I think it will get worse as more and more is done online. Regardless of whether the surviving spouse is "tech savvy", they probably won't know who provides the utilities/telecoms nor who the pensions/savings are with. Simply because of there being no paperwork around.

At least when there is paperwork, there's something "real", however well or badly it's filed, it's still there somewhere if you look, i.e. in cupboards, drawers, in boxes etc. I've done far more than my fair share of sorting through piles of paperwork to extract what really matters, however old the papers may be, such as premium bonds, share certificates, etc that are often decades old.

Now more is done "online", you're working "blind" especially if you don't know login details, passwords, etc. You've got to hope that the spouse dealing with the money has their computer/iphone etc set up with website bookmarks/apps etc and that you know their passwords to access their email accounts.

Personally, I do most things online, but I take print outs of bank statements/bills, etc - not every one, but I have a file with a document, maybe a few months old, such as an electric bill, phone bill, broadband bill, rates and water rates, home and car insurance, pensions documents, bank statements, etc. They won't be the latest, most up to date one, but at least it's a record of account numbers, providers details, etc which is a good starting point for someone taking it over. I also keep all our household/personal finances on a book-keeping system, which has up to date values of pensions, investments, etc., and do a regular print out of that which I also print out showing a snapshot of the "full picture" of our assets etc.

DH and I are of similar ages to your DMIL.
But we're both computer literate (and have been since the late 70s/early 80s when the 'new technology' as it was then called, began to be introduced into our fields) and have kept up to date with it ever since. DH can't be arsed with most social media but is well aware of how it functions. I set up our email address in the 1990s.
I take care of our finances through online or mobile banking, DH sorts out utilities. We both drive. I research new cars and book services, MOTs when necessary. We do our own tax returns.
DH does most of the household cleaning these days, I cook.
I reckon we could both cope with doing all this solo, when the time comes. Although it won't be much fun. 😢

@ElphabaTheGreen

I totally agree with you, and don't know why you are getting such a hard time on this thread. Could be because it was a generalisation that all women over a certain age are like that. I know you didn't mean to be offensive though. I mean, I am not offended, but clearly quite a few people are!!!

I know a few women over 70, who are perfectly OK with dealing with tradesmen, and dealing with MOTs and booking the car in for maintenance, and who deal with the bills, and 'life admin.' But tbh it's not that many.

In most couples in that age group, (and older,) it is (and always has been) the husband who deals with everything financial. I mean EVERYTHING. He has complete control of the finances. His wife often has no CLUE what is in the bank, and absolutely no access to it.

Just recently, an elderly gentleman near me died aged 83, and his wife is 78. Married for 60 years. Their grandaughter (57,) said her mother was a lost soul financially. She didn't even have access to the bank accounts. (Working account, and savings account.)

I spoke to her daughter a fortnight or so after the man had died, and it turned out, there was £175,000 in the savings, that she (his wife) knew NOTHING about. She had been pootling around in charity shop clothes, and cardigans and slippers and shoes that she had had for 20 years, because they had hardly any money, and he had squirrelled away £175,000.

Because everything was in HIS name, she couldn't touch a penny, and didn't even have money for food and bills. House is owned and paid for outright some 25 years ago, so no rent or mortgage, but she had NOTHING. She couldn't even pay for his funeral. The 57 y.o DD had to pay for it. She said when it's sorted, she will get it back, but that's what happened.

I assume it's sorted now, as it was six months ago, but this man's widow had such a lot of problems.

And I know/have known of a number of other women who had the same issues, over the years - they know nothing about the finances, and have no control of anything. (Mostly in couples aged 70+...) Not even JOINT control/joint accounts (or even individual accounts, and a joint one for bills, like many couples do now... )

I am not saying all women over 70 can't do shit, and don't know fuckall about anything... But to be all offended and sniffy, because the OP pointed out a basic fact, (that some women- particularly the over 70s, have no basic life admin skills, and know nothing about dealing with finances,) is just ridiculous. I have also noticed many women over 70, lack skills like driving, swimming, being able to ride a bike, and some other things many people can do.

It's quite sad, because it harks back to a day when women were kept in their place, and only taught the thing wimmin needed to know, like how to cook, clean, and raise children!

No-one is saying ALL women over 70 are like this, but some are, and it's ridiculous to suggest any different. Also, when their husband dies, it's usually left to the middle aged children, and 20-30 something grandchildren to sort everything out, if the man dies first (which he usually does!)

I’ve no idea how a car engine works, don’t understand the rules of Test Cricket, am flummoxed about the offside rule, can’t reverse a car with a trailer on but I am neither incompetent, ‘starting with dementia’, or have learning difficulties. I have just never seen a need to do any of those things myself, or am just not interested.
My DH has no idea about our finances because I do it all and tends to ‘switch off’ when I tell him where everything is. I don’t mind, I’ve left a list of everything he would need to know about if I died suddenly.
My DM, who’s 85, also deals with all the finances in her marriage. It’s quite insulting that you think it may be something thats common in women over 70, or even that if it is, there’s something wrong with it!

@Confusedandshaken We worked together in a building soc at the time and she had an in-house mortgage and she even took some convincing that it wasn't the building socs. responsibility to repair her boiler or paint her front door.

I can fully believe that. I've had a few clients over the years, such as a retired headmaster and a doctor who started businesses after early retirement and just couldn't grasp that they were responsible for their business admin/book-keeping, etc. They genuinely thought all they had to do was send all the paperwork "somewhere" such as either Companies House or HM Revenue & Customs and they'd look after it all for them! The doctor, in particular, was pretty aggrieved and got quite angry when I pointed out that he either does it himself or pays someone like me to do it for him. He genuinely thought I'd get paid "by someone" such as Companies House or HMRC to do it for him!

I think they get used to "someone" doing it all for them, whether it's their husband/wife for home things or their secretary/admin at work for their work paperwork.

My mother-in-law is like this too. I have no idea how she'll cope if FIL goes first.

Although part of me thinks that it could actually be the making of her as I'm sure she could do it if he let her.

My dad's wife is also like this. She is quite a lot younger than him and he's tried explaining everything to her in preparation but she just doesn't want to know. He's told me and a close friend of his where to find everything if/when he dies as she would have no clue at all about their finances.

In my house, we have pretty defined roles (that have evolved over the 20 years we've been together) and mine includes all the finances but I know DH is competent enough to pick up our finances (and I have a README document explaining everything). He does all the technology which I'd be less capable of taking on but I know I'd manage somehow!

@MrKlaw

We're only early 50s but I don't know if my wife would know how to access my bank accounts, or where all my pensions are. Although they're filed away so she'd probably find them.

Wonder if we should do dry runs of this kind of admin to make sure either loved one isn't missing things

You can download checklists (or make your own) for compiling a list of bank accounts, savings accounts, other investments, premium bonds, mortgage, loans, life insurance, any prepaid funeral plan, pensions, utilities, council tax, car and house insurance, health insurance etc and any other important admin stuff that will be required by the spouse/partner left to deal with probate, or who will need to collate some of this information together for a solicitor, if a solicitor would be handling your probate.

I'd also include details of any websites, blogs and domain names you own; any forums you admin and what you want to happen to these in the event of your demise. Subscriptions for newspapers, clubs, gyms etc.

I’ll make a suggestion and get shot down

Since my mid 50s nad menopause really took hold I get anxious and panicky about really stupid everyday decisions. If a admin letter turns up hat needs addressing I can feel physical sensations akin to stress just cos it’s something that needs doing.
I was doing a very demanding technical role as a scientist - had to take early retirement for anxiety and some other stuff not related to health. It’s that bad.
I know it’s irrational, I sought medical help but came off drugs a couple of years back. I have to do a lot of things to manage the anxiety and not let it overwhelm me. It’s quite horrible

So, could there be a similar thing going on. She is capable but not knowledgable yet . But underlying this is getting anxious and stressed and the brain is shutting down from being able to process decision making etc in that state .

If she was a teacher, she is intelligent enough to deal with it and learn what is needed. If she doesn’t have dementia then it’s not that sort of cognitive impairment, but this irrational anxiety that hits some of us at menopause could be a factor and making her panic and avoid dealing with it

Because everything was in HIS name, she couldn't touch a penny, and didn't even have money for food and bills. House is owned and paid for outright some 25 years ago, so no rent or mortgage, but she had NOTHING. She couldn't even pay for his funeral. The 57 y.o DD had to pay for it. She said when it's sorted, she will get it back, but that's what happened

Eh? The funeral can be paid for directly out of the estate in a case like that.
Who ended up inheriting the 175K? I hope it was his wife so she can at least go on a shopping spree now and get some new slippers.

Haven’t read the whole thread so may be repeating what others have said but people can change in this regard. My father was extremely good at paperwork, accounts etc & used to help his less able friends out with tax returns etc. Had a computer and so on. But as he got older he needed his children to help out more with this sort of thing. Maybe just a lack of confidence...

OP, I think you are getting a rough ride - you are trying to benchmark what it is reasonable to expect DMIL to be able to do rather than labelling all women of a certain age incapable.

I think the answer is, as this thread has shown' "it depends". I think that women of that generation were probably more likely to depend on a man if there was one around, just because if they married young, society was not set up for them to be the one on the mortgage or administering the bank account etc, and raising children without nursery/pre school hours often took them away from some other aspects of life admin, so they maybe got used to this. But that does not mean you can generalise about all such women - there will be vastly different experiences and capabilities.

My dad's mum was totally and utterly codependent and really did have a very gendered role and couldn't cope with any form of admin after his dad died. She was suffering early stage dementia at that point, but there was also a lot of learned helplessness - she hadn't worked for 20'years when her husband died and her husband really did do everything admin wise.

My mum's mum was divorced in her 50s and had to learn to drive and start all over again and at 90 she was playing bridge, driving everywhere and doing all her admin herself. She was so-so on emails, but not bad at text messages and she was totally capable. She asked my dad for financial advice, but only because he was an accountant and was very good at that sort of stuff and he also did the car maintenance for her.

I am surprised that your mum was a teacher until recently as I would have thought that would put her in the second camp. But it could be that grief or dementia is having an impact.

My DMIL was like this. She gave up work in the 1960s and never returned. She was a SAHM and once kids left home, she did housework and cooking, shopping etc, she told FIL what to wear etc but couldnt work the tv without help. She had no idea how to work a computer, pr use a smart phone. I dont think she would have dealt with bills etc. When another family members husband died, we were saying we wondered if she would be able to cope ok, and MIL immediately said she would be fine because she cooked and cleaned herself (which are actually things you could easily outsource)

However I think the whole process of dealing with death is difficult and next of kin are having to make decisions and sort out all kinds of shit immediately, in the midst of grief, and I imagine even the most competent people might sometimes struggle.

@ElphabaTheGreen I think there are thousands of women currently in their 70s and 80s just like your MIL. My DM is definitely one of them.

I’m impressed that your MIL even uses a computer - my mother looks blankly and says ‘which button do I press again?’ after something is explained. She struggles to use a mobile phone too - even one of those simple Doro type ones. Her mobile was cut off recently because it hadn’t been used for so long! My siblings and I do all her life admin because so much of it has to be online now. My DM always worked, is very intelligent and sensible but she just can’t figure out any type of technology, no matter how many times it is explained.

DM was exactly the same as your MIL about bank accounts, finances and practical matters for the first few years after DF died. When she wanted to go on holiday she went round to a travel agent who booked everything for her. If the car needed an MOT she went to the garage in person to book it in. Obviously during the pandemic she has had to do more by phone or rely on other people. We have accepted that she will always need our support to deal with life admin that can’t be done by phone or in person.

I have no suggestions to help but I really do understand your frustration!

I’ve seen it in both sexes. You have the busy man with his important job, where the wife does literally everything in the house (plus her own job). DF was like this, DM went in to hospital and he couldn’t turn the heat on, didn’t know where the plates were kept, etc etc, and he was in his 30s then.

And then you get the pampered princesses, whose husbands open car doors and don’t let them worry their pretty little heads about anything (may or may not be something the wife is happy about, and can veer over into financial abuse/coercive control). Then yes, the wife had literally no idea how to do anything once the DH is no longer around.

There was a thread the other day where the wife was incapable of getting on a train in her 50s because she had always been driven everywhere, and somebody else popped up to say their DMIL couldn’t cope with carrying her own shopping

So I wouldn’t say it was common, but yes there are people like that around. Learned helplessness.

I actually wouldn’t completely rule out early dementia in your DMIL’s case - if she can’t understand requests for confirms of address, she might have problems with executive functioning (planning complex actions/making decisions). Often seen in vascular dementia, long before any memory problems. People literally can’t follow what they are being told, despite understanding the individual words - they just can’t put it together.

It doesn't take both of you to change a lightbulb does it?

Of course not. I just expected to be told the form had arrived and asked if I wanted him to complete it rather than be presented with a fait accomplis. Maybe I’m weird and controlling. 🤷‍♀️

I think she will come round, if never to a point where she is totally "on it". Your DH may have to continue to assist. But...grief does funny things to people's thought processes. She may not be weeping buckets or tearing her hair, but both consciously and sub-consciously her grief will be absorbing a huge amount of her brain capacity. She may be shutting down in order to cope with her feelings of loss.
They say never make any major decision within a year of bereavement. My father died quite young and though my mother was extremely competent, she chose wallpaper and furnishings that she hated very quickly!
Your DH too must be grieving and I hope he takes some comfort in being there for his mum.

Sounds like my husband and he's only in his 40's, he can build a house but wouldn't have a clue how to switch a laptop on.
If I go first he will have how no idea how much our mortgage or utilities, in fact I don't think he even knows who our supplier is

"@Alsohuman it's just a factual form though - any household member could complete it , surely it doesn't need a within household consultation?"

There are plenty of questions that are personal/subjective, the ethnicity one for example. Apparently these days if you do it online you can do certain parts yourself even if someone else is doing the rest of it.

"There was a thread the other day where the wife was incapable of getting on a train in her 50s because she had always been driven everywhere"

But that would be the same if she had always been the driver.
You would have laughed if you'd seen me trying to understand trains in London for the first time having been used to a train station with either one or two platforms.

Why do you assume it’s a woman thing? Also what dose it matter?

They had there separate roles, she did things your FIL wasn’t good at and vice versa.

Had my mother died before my DF he would not have had a clue about paperwork or finances. I had to show him how to use an atm and after a few attempts he gave up and just asked me to get him cash out. Online banking or anything like that would have confused the bell out of him. But cooking, cleaning, house maintenance, diy, maintaining cars he was a wizz at.

We had this the other way around when MIL died, FIL literally didn't know his own PIN number and couldn't access any money or even go shopping (pre contactless). We were able to piece together most things from paper records in the house but couldn't help him with everything as he wouldn't let either of his children have POA.

Although outsourcing cooking and cleaning would have been easier, he wouldn't allow this either - a combination of grief and pride. It was hard to deal with for me as the DIL as there's a fine balance between supporting and intruding, but harder for DH and BIL as they were also bereaved and trying to come to terms with losing MIL too.

Both DH and I have checklists set up which we try to remember to update when accounts change etc, and he's very conscious to show me and DC how to do things around the house/car stuff that he does routinely and I don't have a natural aptitude for. We started doing this after a friend lost her husband very suddenly in their late 30s, hopefully by the time it becomes a necessity it will be a well-worn practice for us, and take some of the burden off our DC as well.

@Tightwad2020

Exactly the same here in terms of spreadsheets. I’ve never bothered to review the one the DH keeps and he has never bothered to review the one I keep but they exist and are available in the event they are needed.

the 2021 Census is a different matter.

I would guess a lot of people did not want to / were slow to fill it in / might have been indignant about enforcement / threatened fines - because

• the scope of information requested went far and beyond what I have previously seen (data protection issues) and some people will have thought it is an invasion of privacy; and
• some people will have the perception of its national inaccuracy in as much as one category of the population gets chased up / threatened and the other category of the population is just not even known about (itinerent population / immigration not monitored properly etc) and is not chased.

it was possible to do the census 2021 by hard copy post and online

" I have also noticed many women over 70, lack skills like driving, swimming, being able to ride a bike, and some other things many people can do."

I'm surprised by this. I would have thought that women that age would have learned how to ride a bike as a child. I can imagine that if you haven't kept active, done any swimming or cycling for years that you may not be in good enough condition to take it up again at 70, but that's not the same as never having been able to.