Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

And YY to those posters who have identified gaps in their own knowledge of how their household works - I've insisted on spreadsheets from each of us with up-to-date details on accounts and passwords. And the filing system is shared. If one or other of us drops dead, the admin can march on unimpeded!

Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing

Probably

I'm surprised at as 'young as 70. My parents are 72 but my mum would be totally clued up about self management, though I guess some relationships from the generation where the man did everything of that ilk. Especially if wife never worked, though don't know if that was case with OP's MIL.

I have sorted out financial stuff for widowed people as a CAB advisor, they'll come in with a bag full of papers saying they are struggling. I think the Red Cross also do this sort of help too.

Saying that I have a Mil who excelled at having FiL do everything. I seriously think it's not helped her now she has some form of dementia. No brain elasticity.

I still spend a good part of my time with various older friends helping them avoid scams, as they are ripe for exploitation.

The census is interesting. I do all my own life admin. The bloke does his. Yet when the census letter arrived he opened it and told me he’d completed and submitted the form after he’d done it. I was aghast, I’d never have done it without consulting him. Can I return him to the 1950s?

We're only early 50s but I don't know if my wife would know how to access my bank accounts, or where all my pensions are. Although they're filed away so she'd probably find them.

Wonder if we should do dry runs of this kind of admin to make sure either loved one isn't missing things

Have similar issue with my MIL it's very hard for everyone and it's cautionary tale to all women to be involved in all aspects of family life. I would hate to be like this and need to rely on my children in this way.

As @Remaker says, However there are personality types who prefer to let someone else handle “stuff” for them and over time it becomes learned helplessness.

There are both men and women who are like that. There are tons of threads on here about men who say they don't know where things go in the house.

My friend is a headteacher and she will say she has no idea of what money is in their accounts and that as long as she can basically spend what she wants, within reason, obviously, then she's happy. Her husband takes over all of that. They have a very happy marriage. I reckon she earns three or four times his salary and she thinks she has enough to deal with at work, so relinquishes that.

Yes, they were the first generation to be working outside the home and starting to be able to run their own affairs rather than their husbands and fathers controlling them.

However you have to remember that the men of that generation were equally faced with being the first to be losing roles that they had taken for granted and that this was a huge adjustment for them. Many men found it very difficult to let women into their domain (and let's face it many younger men still do).

Your FIL may be lovely but perhaps his controlling that aspect of their lives gave him the security that he still had a role to play as the provider/protector despite his wife working.

My mum was a bit like this, we discovered after BF died, but not quite to that degree. But what we did discover is that DF was the driving force in their lives generally, and without him she couldn't do the going out, socialising thing because he led the way.

@WTF99

Yes, all of us older women are ignorant about how to function in the world

My OH died a year ago, the concensus of opinion was that had it happened the other way round he would have been stuffed because I tended to deal with on-line stuff, not because he couldn't, it just happened that way. However, can I find the docs for the car, a car in my name, can I hell!

My aunt is like this - my uncle is very ill at the moment and it has become clear that he does all of this sort of thing. She had no idea about their bank accounts, she can’t drive, she doesn’t know how to use a computer or her phone (beyond making a call). She’s mid 70s. Not only has she got to deal with the fact that my uncle is increasingly ill but she’s overwhelmed by what she’s now got to take on and learn and is frequently in tears about it.

It's not an age nor sex thing at all. My Dad, who ran his own business, died at aged 69. My mother had to deal with both his death and continue running his business. She learned pretty quickly! She ran the business for a few years until she sold it aged approx 75! She ran her house "life admin", through diabetes, a hip replacement and finally cancer, whilst living at home and caring for herself, even driving until she died aged 89. Her mind was sharp until the day she died and she did everything herself. She never asked for, nor needed, any help with any of that. She was even doing her own painting/wallpapering/gardening etc in her 80s.

@wandawombat

I have sorted out financial stuff for widowed people as a CAB advisor, they'll come in with a bag full of papers saying they are struggling. I think the Red Cross also do this sort of help too.

Saying that I have a Mil who excelled at having FiL do everything. I seriously think it's not helped her now she has some form of dementia. No brain elasticity.

I still spend a good part of my time with various older friends helping them avoid scams, as they are ripe for exploitation.

None of that is unique to older or widowed people.

I'm an accountant, and loads of business owners bring in a bag full of paperwork, including unopened invoices and bank statements, and basically havn't a clue who owes them money, nor who they owe money to do, nor even how much they have in their bank account.

It's frightening. They can be young or old, male or female. Just no ability at all to do even the most basic of paperwork. And no, not just people like builders etc - I've had doctors and dentists do it too!

I don't think its that uncommon that a division of labour happens this way in relationships. When we lost my Dad a couple of years ago one of the only silver linings is that my Mum (also in her 70's) did all of the life admin for them, dealt with probate herself and very practically has organised everything for us for when something eventually happens to her. If she had died first my Dad wouldn't have known where to start.

@ElphabaTheGreen I'm sure your MIL will get better at dealing with things as time goes on - it's an absolute shock to lose your life partner and confidant - but she will adjust to making some of her own decisions.

My MIL has her own bank account but FIL does everything payment related - she won't have a clue financially if he goes first. On the other hand he won't know how to use the washing machine if she dies first (really!)

He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

If she'd gone first your DFIL would have struggled just as much as her but in different way. He would have had to learn to iron and hoover just as she will have to learn to deal with the admin.
She's grieving at the moment and that makes everything very hard.

As for saying she didn't have a clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral... absolutely nobody does until they have to do it for the first time.
I was 42 when my Dad died and use computers all the time for admin etc... but I was completely overwhelmed by my Dad's death and had no clue even how to start with any of it. It's a hideous task and there's so much to do. Everyone needs help with this if they've never had to do it before.
I had to phone the registry office several times about the certificate and I was constantly on the phone to the undertaker. I was so away with the mixer that I struggled to understand what people were saying.

All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address

She cannot grasp requests for basic information because she is mired in grief even if she's not lying on the sofa crying all the time.

She will get to grips with things with patience and understanding.

And by the way, I know plenty of people my age who don't know how to put screen wash in the car and don't book their own MOT because their husbands do it so I don't think it's an "age" thing.

@wandawombat

I have sorted out financial stuff for widowed people as a CAB advisor, they'll come in with a bag full of papers saying they are struggling. I think the Red Cross also do this sort of help too.

Saying that I have a Mil who excelled at having FiL do everything. I seriously think it's not helped her now she has some form of dementia. No brain elasticity.

I still spend a good part of my time with various older friends helping them avoid scams, as they are ripe for exploitation.

So that answers one of my questions in part - can we sign post to the CAB for all financial guidance? Or is the assistance they are allowed to provide strictly limited to benefits? Could they ‘handhold’ a recently bereaved through the process of ‘and now you have to phone the funeral director...now you have to phone up the registry office...yes, I’ll sit with you as they’ll ask very sad questions...’

And YY to a PP who commented that there are some people who think there is Somebody who Does These Things by the power of their minds. The number of patients who have ranted at me that the council have never provided them with a stair lift when they feel they need one...then it transpires they’ve never actually asked for or sought the help from anyone but were angry that their walls seemingly didn’t have eyes to transmit their difficulties to the relevant parties...it’s quite eye-opening.

I don't think it's a generational thing my nan did everything herself she couldn't drive but still went out booked holidays settled her bills.
I'd say my OH is like this I do all the life admin 🤣🤣🤣

Isnt what's coming out of this is that everyone is organising things differently either by choice or necessity? And of course there are people who cannot cope with basic life admin - I work with people who struggle with that because of literacy, my DD is nearly 18 she can use insta and tiktok but due to MH issues cannot cope with emails or her bank account. My father in his 80s set up a WhatsApp and wanted to talk to me I'm 58 and initially didn't know how to use it. My cousin in her 70s can't cope with the internet in any way shape or form yet she wishes she could and was previously a shrewd business woman. Sometimes I struggle with memory and I can't get it together to record passwords etc., I used to be a senior secretary but I can't even change the margins in a word document now. My H is great with passwords (as he takes great delight in reminding me) but conveniently can't pay any bills, has no idea about the mortgage.

So many different examples and circumstances. And yes it is very common that when a man dies, his wife in her 60s/70s and beyond will not be able to deal with anything. Most support groups for recently bereaved women consist entirely of them asking how to claim the insurance and get access to the bank account.

Hi
My mum is EXACTLY like this. Her and my dad have a great relationship both early 70's and they have joint and individual money . My Dad positively encourages her to spend money so not Financial Abuse in any way.
She almost sees it as a badge of honor that she cant do these things and despite me getting her an iPad so its easier, she still willfully refuses to email. She even gets my dad to buy her kindle books on "the amazon" for her. Same about driving just refused to learn.
God help us if my dad goes first.

@Alsohuman

The census is interesting. I do all my own life admin. The bloke does his. Yet when the census letter arrived he opened it and told me he’d completed and submitted the form after he’d done it. I was aghast, I’d never have done it without consulting him. Can I return him to the 1950s?

@Alsohuman it's just a factual form though - any household member could complete it , surely it doesn't need a within household consultation?

It doesn't take both of you to change a lightbulb does it?

@ElphabaTheGreen
Thanks you for this thread. It has made me think about what we do. We are both computer literate but DW is better than me, because she used them in her work.
I cannot log into our bank accounts I have used her log in but NatWest insist I use my own.

If I need money I ask DW, how much we have and what we expect before end of month. DW is an accountant.
I am surprised by the catty remarks you have had. To me you are using ordinary everyday vocabulary to explain how bewildered are both you and your bereaved H finding MiL so lost. You are obviously being very kind on a practical level.

Some people, particularly women are deskilled by their husbands/ partners. I had a friend who was an educated professional woman who asked me how she should pay her utility bills following her husbands death. She was then in her late fifties I suppose. This was pre online banking so involved nothing more challenging than writing a cheque , tearing off the bottom bit of the bill and posting them in the prepaid envelope. But she had never done it.

It horrified me, I had met her husband and he was a charming, kind , considerate man who had, I am sure, only wanted to make her life easier. But in doing so he had deskilled her. My experience was well over 20 years ago, pretty amazed to hear it is still happening .

@TheYearOfSmallThings

And btw I think a lot of it is just habit. I have friends who have bought houses relatively late (this being London) and have always referred repairs and maintenance to landlords in the past. When they suddenly have to be responsible for old boilers and dripping taps and mould bath sealant, they are starting from zero at the age of 40, and some of them are clueless.

I think you are quite right there. I worked with someone who bought a house in her 40s after living in her family HA property all her life. She was reasonably bright and competent and had worked hard to save a deposit. She was completely unable to grasp the concept that maintenance of the house was her responsibility now. She couldn't just phone the HA office and raise a complaint. Instead she had to work out what needed doing and either do it herself or employ and pay a tradesman directly. We worked together in a building soc at the time and she had an in-house mortgage and she even took some convincing that it wasn't the building socs. responsibility to repair her boiler or paint her front door.

It sounds ridiculous but it was a very real and serious problem to her. She genuinely couldn't cope with that level of responsibility. After about 18 months of distress and worry she sold the house and moved back in with her parents.

"I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected])."

I'm really shocked at this. Having a joint email is really common in that age group, as is having a shared computer and a shared phone at home. They also quite often have a btinternet email address.

My DF retired about the same time as your DM and also isn't that great with technology even though he had an email address at the end.

I don't really get the wills things. Isn't anybody who's never had to deal with it before going to be clueless about legal things?