Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

People in less developed countries who don't even speak English learn how to use computers and smart phones.

I assume you aren’t suggesting those people are generally of lower intelligence / capabilities than we in the western world?

With my FIL the reverse was true, MIL did everything and he felt lost and bewildered following her death. He did however get better with time and support from friends and family. In particular, (this is fifteen years ago so it might have changed), there were a number of good courses for retired people. I recall he did one called a computer driving licence which he really liked and found useful. I do not think we were wholly surprised by where he finished up and OP I think you need to move from surprise to support mode really quickly.

There are a lot of incredibly ageist comments on here. The MIL is not that old and the fact that she has no life skills will be down entirely to her personality rather than her age. It is unusual but there will be younger people who are the same. All you can do, is teach her how to do stuff and assuming she is reasonably intelligent, she will pick it up.

@MintyMabel

People in less developed countries who don't even speak English learn how to use computers and smart phones.

I assume you aren’t suggesting those people are generally of lower intelligence / capabilities than we in the western world?

Oh for crying out loud. I am from the less developed world. We do not always have the language software, as I have explained earlier if you bothered to read my posts properly. My point is that in a homogenous country with only one language, it is much easier for people to be tech savvy.

Exactly, o do t get the huge surprise element in the op and the concern if a widespread societal malaise.

It's a post bereavement adjustment combined with admin moving to the internet. I know people who aren't on the internet and it is getting harder year by year. But as my mum says she feels it's too late to start now. She is very capable of looking after herself outside of that though.

[quote popularinthe80s]@ElphabaTheGreen I really feel for you - this sense of overwhelm.

Can I please repeat the question I started with in my long waffly post - as an OT - have you seen this in your professional work?
I work alongside OTs and see it's a big part of their job, supporting people to achieve independence.
What did this professional experience tell you about how people cope?
Please don't feel I'm saying 'you should have known all this from your job'. I mean this with kindness - can your professional experience help you?[/quote]
Sorry popular - I must have missed your question!

We’re doing what I would advise in this situation which is a very, very graded, sensitive and gentle introduction of these tasks (despite what some posters are choosing to believe...). So of course we’re dealing with all the tricky bits of probate - the working out of assets, the division of finances and property - but when she gets a very basic email asking her to confirm her address and expects us to deal with it down to that minutiae...no. That is a perfect opportunity to sit with her - patiently and, yes, kindly, always, we adore her - and say, ‘Right, DMIL - this is an easy one. Do you see that reply button...now type in...’ and talk her slowly through the process, at her own pace. One easy response to a solicitor should increase her confidence to try, or at least get more involved in, a less easy one next time.

OT is a massively broad profession. I work with acute hospital inpatients (so lots of elderly...those with the ‘ageist’ comments can jog on) where our remit is to patch up and move them on, either home with support or to rehab. As I’ve said in one of my previous posts, I genuinely don’t know what happens to those in these co-dependent relationships as we can’t get that involved due to the speed we have to work at - long term financial management is not a necessity to get someone out of hospital. I fully realise that there must be a massive gap as this thread has shown, and we may be dumping many patients and families into an absolute shit show, but I wouldn’t have any idea who to sign post such patients onto if they didn’t have family and friends to help.

"I think the key is in the 'totally besotted for 40 years' description. I think it's about personalities and the relationship dynamic. The relationship is like that because one or other of the couple manages things on their own and it suits the other one to be passive. "

This.

Whether they were besotted or not is a judgement you are making about their private relationship looking in from outside - obviously you have recently got much more insight but don't you think drawing conclusions about their personal relationship is a stretch too far?

There could be all manner of reasons why things ended up like this, the most brutal of which being that neither wanted to and/or had the opportunity to leave for something different.

And often people adapt in both conscious and sub consicous ways to what initially feels "comfortable".

But do not assume that just because she could not do "life admin" as you put it she did not and does not have skills or interests in other areas you are unaware of. Even if those skills / interests are unapparent (or at least unapparent in the way you expect them to manifest themselves eg computers) does not mean they are not there. Mourning can mask a lot of some people's personalities in very different ways and for a very long time.

Obviously I am not there but I would be careful not to be too judgy around her (expressly or implicitly) as do not under estimate her ability to pick up on that. If the burden on you is big then just say that and say what you can and what you cannot help her with - i.e. treat her as an adult notwithstanding her "woeful" lack of life admin skills.

I know many many women of this age group who do not have email addresses and still correspond with me by good old Royal Mail - it has annoyed me in the past because it is a faff to get photos etc printed off hard copy to send to them in a letter but it is worth meeting them in their place to maintain the relationship and I respect their preference.

I am 69 and a retired teacher and neither I, nor my friends, would be unable to cope with life admin. One of my friends has just been widowed at 67 and I can't imagine her being unable to sort everything out.
Is it possible Elphabarthegreen that she is still in shock over her husband's death and that grief is making it hard to process new things?

Martin Lewis discussed on some of his shows seeing this in long relationships, where admin has fallen on one person and with their death the other ends up not having any idea and really at a loss with their grief and trying to figure it all out. He made it sound like it more not uncommon enough that it needed talking about than a common issue that's happening all the time.

One of his talks is why I started to bring my spouse into these things more and made a google sheet with all our accounts and details just in case. We've been together since we were teenagers, essentially learned life admin together, and by the time we were in our twenties, we'd fallen into this - I just did all the life admin I could, we spent years with only me having bank accounts after he'd had one closed for a whole list of reasons, it took over 15 years to get him to joint bank account with me and get his own personal account which he still doesn't touch, doesn't even carry the card. It comes more naturally to me and it's taken effort to move out of that towards something more balanced, but at least he has the information if needed.

On the flip of that, he handles nearly everything to do with food and has for our entire marriage. The most I usually do in a week is add a couple things to online shop or send him a couple things on messenger that the kids want from the shop before he goes. I'm hoping after we move and will have a more accessible kitchen that we might have another go at making that more balanced, but I know from previous attempts that it's going to take a lot of effort on both of our parts -- it's hard to get through that learning curve where I feel I should know how to do things and I just don't & it can be hard to teach someone something that you've been doing all your life.

It's like when I taught my children maths, I knew about struggling with that and made sure I considered the tools carefully, but teaching them writing was a lot harder because I've never had an issue with that and I was unclear about how useful any of the tools could be -- and neither my spouse or I want to treat the other like a child which can compound not being entirely sure how to teach or how to take things.

It's great that you can help and as you said, she's picking things up. It takes time and patience which can be difficult and more stressful for all parties involved with grief.

When my parents died a friend and I had a conversation about how awful it is that an avalanche of bureaucracy and red tape hits you just when you’re least equipped to deal with it. Add losing your soulmate of nearly 50 years into the equation after a lifetime of having it all done for you and what do you expect?

She can be taught to do this stuff with some time and patience. If the situation had been reversed I’d put money on Fil struggling with anything domestic because she always took care of it. Please cut her some slack.

It really isn't all about tech nor age. Some people are incapable of dealing with written correspondence such as bills, bank statements, appointment letters, etc. Personally, I think a lot of it is down to poor education - "Comprehension" in secondary schools is all about literature and isn't really taught well. There are comprehension exams at the end of each year and in formal exams, but very little is done to "teach" them and they're nearly always about a piece of literature or poetry. Go back a few decades and comprehension included things like a recipe or an instruction leaftlet. English also used to include letter writing, form filling, etc., which again has disappeared from the syllabus in the last couple of decades. I see poor literacy skills at all ages because of the dominance of literature and poetry in schools rather than real life literacy skills.

There have been all kinds of campaigns to get organisations to improve their communication skills, i.e. write letters more simply, include simple instructions in letters and forms, use less jargon, etc., which has been very successful, but it hasn't actually improved things at the recipients end because they still don't have comprehension/literacy skills. Just look at the recent census. Pretty simple letter giving two choices - either log in or phone for a paper form. Couldn't have been simpler, yet people still couldn't understand what they had to do. It's as if there's a mental block between reading the words and actually understanding what they mean!

Can I offer my perspective...

I am late 50s and relatively recently retired from a senior management position in the nhs, managing a large workforce and a big budget.

I've been married 35 years and I don't even know who insures our house. I have a vague idea of our assets. I've never paid a household bill. OH does all of it... and I'm happy to let him.

However I'm not incapable. I've administered parents and PIL estates, bought property etc.

We have chosen this division of labour unconsciously.. and it suits us. I do just about everything else.

I am aware should anything happen to him I'd be a bit stuffed for a short while but I'd sort it out without too much trouble. If this changes at any point I'll have to rectify it before I lose the ability to

What I'm saying is this lifestyle suits.. your MIL just sounds like she's lacked self awareness as she's aged. Or put her head in the sand. Grief will be making it all so much worse when she is feeling so vulnerable.

Some of the lack of understanding and ageism is really sad to read.

[quote Piglet89]@Flippyferloppy but it’s the tone of the OP that makes it really dismissive and unsympathetic of her MIL. For example, this really stood out:

Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

This is totally unnecessary, really quite unpleasant (and, as far as I can see, unsubstantiated) conjecture about a woman who’s clearly really struggling to cope at the moment after a major shock.[/quote]
But DH completely agrees and would explain her struggle with computers and is not unkindly meant. It’s speculation, yes, but does make sense, if she’d managed to swerve technology completely in the latter stages of her career because she was able to adopt more of a caretaker role in her final years rather than ‘teacher’, so possibly just relied on others to tell her when meetings were rather than keeping tabs on electronic communication herself. If she was just doing relief, she probably didn’t have to do any lesson planning or assessment beyond invigilating the odd exam (aware I could be talking out my arse as I’m not a teacher so don’t know completely how it works). She herself describes her teacher training as more like a ladies’ finishing school rather than anything as rigorous as secondary teachers require now (she would have trained in the late 60s). She taught half the mums and teachers in my DCs’ school - they just love her because she was this motherly figure who taught them how to cook. So many of them came out and lined the roads when DFIL was being taken in the hearse to the church. The school even let out some of the teachers she’d taught to stand as we passed. It was so moving.

It becomes a habit to leave a spouse to do certain things. My dh (we are elderly) leaves a lot of the things mentioned to me because some years ago I wanted to manage if I became disabled and hated the thought of asking people to do my shopping which at the time I was doing for neighbours, etc. So then I became interested, computer, lap top and then Oh! Joy, an iPad. Then the beloved iphone. Gradually I took over and dh let me quite happily although we always dealt with money together. The thing is he has taken a lot of persuading that you don’t need to send letters to people and is gradually waking up to the idea that there is a whole world of convenience out there although he doesn’t actually do it. For his 80th birthday I bought him an iPad which he loves. As we now have internet banking he looks over my shoulder while I pay bills,etc. He has tried to send emails slowly but he is getting there. My dh is far more intelligent than me but he has had to dragged into the modern world. He has been happy to let me get on with things while there are a whole lot of things he does that I can’t do. I am nearly 80 so really worried that one of us will be left bereft not only emotionally but practically. I am just depending on my family to support us when it is necessary but so want us to be independent.

" I wish there was a service where someone would come into your home, say, "you need to do x, y, and z," organise it all, and write it all down! I'm not averse to doing it if I can be sure I'll do it right, but the learning how, and the being afraid I'll do it wrong and cost me/us thousands of pounds is terrifying!"

Anonforthis234

is there not already something like this?
I know of quite a few businesses which offer "admin" services to people - often presented to business men who do not want to employ a secretarial service/receptionist/office organisation but surely there must be branches of that which focus on a more personal service.

I guess the problem is that if you change the focus to a more blended "I will teach you" rather than "I will do it for you" then there is maybe prohibitive legislation regarding safeguarding of the vulnerable especially as inevitably it is going to involve private and most likely sensitive and/or financial themed information of the person who wants this. So no doubt the business provider will need to have registrations under legislation to safeguard against fraud etc

My mil is exactly the same. Her father did everything and then her husband did. Her husband is a bit impatient and Fonda it easier just to do something himself, she'll now 40 years into marriage she is completely incapable of anything and won't even try. She is a lovely woman but like a twelve year old in some respects

I think the tone of the OP is this way because she fears she might be doing all the work for MIL. This is classic wife work that wives get stuck with, and OP will be expected to be the "patient" one. I sympathise with you, OP, even if no one else does. I hope I am never in such a position and have, in the last few years, tried to up my skills in all these areas as frankly, DH could drop dead any minute. And vice versa, so DH has learnt new skills too.

I think its likely to be that she is just out of practice at doing them. DH and I have different roles with our household admin - of course we can step up to do both but after many years of doing our own roles it would probably take time to get used to doing the other persons role.

She is recently bereaved. Give her some slack and let her adjust to her new life.

Or you could completely take over, as you seem to be doing anyway, which is not going to help her at all.

@ElphabaTheGreen just to be clear my comments weren't aimed at you.. I meant other posters.

You sound very supportive

My mother was the same OP - she’d never used a cash point and was petrified of the computer . My father actually outlived her ... but she was worried how she’d cope

As someone in my late 60's I think it is more complex than this.

It is the curse of retirement. You, after having a clearly defined role and job, suddenly become a "housewife" and it is completely different from being a young SAHM. Its not intentional, because you have all these plans for retirement , projects, trips etc but somehow you become this person who sorts cupboards, does laundry, provides meals etc, and (if you're lucky) mind grandchildren,
The active "admin" side of your brain starts to switch off, and you have (as I have found) have to make efforts to stop this.
Also society is ageist and once they know you are a certain age treat you as a "little old lady" and treat you with a "dementia pending" attitude.

Op treat MIL gently bereavement is tough and she probably really doesn't want to be bothered with anything at the moment and your DH's input is necessary. You have no idea what it is like to lose a long term partner. be patient, I'm sure she is capable but her recovery will be a slow gradual affair.

Dhs mum and my dm were born 1 months
apart to the day but their difference in ability to live on their own is profoundly different. I used to think it was about having the ability to cope and learn but it's not. It's not just in dhs dms ability. I don't care at all. We will look after her. I think my dm who remairoef is much happier and has a better quality of life as a result though. I do care about that though.

Just look at the recent census. Pretty simple letter giving two choices - either log in or phone for a paper form. Couldn't have been simpler, yet people still couldn't understand what they had to do. It's as if there's a mental block between reading the words and actually understanding what they mean!

I think in the case of the census people just didn’t care enough to bother. Almost everyone I spoke to felt having to fill it in was nothing but an irritant and a burden in already stressful times.

I agree with so many other posters that it’s too easy to fall into doing separate “jobs” within a marriage. This thread has made me realise that I don’t know who are current energy suppliers are or who our contents insurance is with. There’s stuff I deal with that DH has no clue about. I suppose the difference is we’re both technology literate enough to be able to figure it out if we really needed to. And as others have pointed out, things have changed massively in the last 15 years or so. I think my mum honestly expected to be long dead before doing everything online became the default!

I also agree about bereavement fog. When my dad died I just floated around with an empty head for a few weeks, and did everything on autopilot. When there wasn’t anything pressing that needed to be done I sat on the sofa and stared into space for long periods. I snapped out of it eventually, and so might the OP’s MIL.

My mother is in her 80's and has always dealt with the financial/admin side of my parents' household. Her secretarial training back in the fifties included double-entry bookkeeping and cash flow accounting, and when my father set up his business in his fifties, my mother did all the invoicing and accounting for the business too. She isn't remotely interested or competent around tech, though, so no online banking or shopping for them - we've only recently managed to get her using a smart phone for texting and the occasional face-time call. But my father would flounder without her on the finance/admin front.

My 13 year old niece, however, has dyscalculia, and although tuition is helping with the exam curriculum, she can still panic faced with a simple numerical question - 'we'll meet you back here in 75 minutes - what time are we meeting?" That panic and worry translates into resistance, so I imagine she could easily become an adult who lets someone else deal with the finance stuff.

I think your MIL's issue is individual, probably exacerbated by a massive drop in security and confidence. I hope she'll be able to pick her way through it all with support - not even dealing with confirmation of addresses sounds like depression?

When I was an actual Staff Nurse I admitted men as young as 50 to have their hips replaced.. some, when asked what daily medications they take & what they are for I've had replies like 'I don't know, the missus knows'!!!
I said what if something happens to 'the missus'?

We actually had an older male visitor whose wife was in hospital. She usually did his meals. He was type 2 diabetic on tablets.
So he'd taken his tablet, not made himself any tea, then driven straight to visit her.
He started having a serious hypo caused by the tablet lowering his blood sugar & him not eating.
I gave him some glucose tablets, then a sandwich, took his car keys off him & took him in a wheelchair to A&E.

It's very worrying that some people just don't know or choose not to know the basics of their own medical problems & leave it to their partners.