Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

And btw I think a lot of it is just habit. I have friends who have bought houses relatively late (this being London) and have always referred repairs and maintenance to landlords in the past. When they suddenly have to be responsible for old boilers and dripping taps and mould bath sealant, they are starting from zero at the age of 40, and some of them are clueless.

Im heading for the same age as your DMIL and think there are many reasons why older people have problems on the death of a partner. Cultural attitudes to gender roles, how their own parents shared/didn’t share life tasks, personality, sexism, abuse.

When I was married my H insidiously took away my confidence in managing such life admin and took complete control. He made unilateral decisions that proved to be so terrible he ended up defrauding his family and business. It was after I left and was on my own that I realised I was more than able to manage insurance, choosing broadband, mobile contracts, banking, bills, savings etc. I am totally independent and have no problems sorting out whatever needs doing. If I am unsure I google or look things up on YouTube .

It’s easy to be robbed of confidence by someone who is controlling or impatient and unwilling to show you what to do or for whatever other reasons someone takes control of a whole area of life. I know quite a few older men who have no interest or clue about basic cookery, laundry, cleaning, choosing clothes. When they find themselves on their own they end up eating ready meals or takeaway and either don’t clean The House or do it poorly.

Its the individual person surely.

My ex and still is like this. I still help it out now, he's mostly clueless.

I can see me being a bit like this in my current relationship, I've gone from one incapable man to a man that really is good at this and has taken over quite a bit of our admin and I must admit its a relief for someone to take over l.

I don't know anyone personally like that but was told by staff at my local bank branch that often older widows don't know anything about managing their money as they had left everything to their husbands.

I think this will be me. We've just divided stuff up over time and my husband is fairly chaotic so doesnt keep records for his bits so i'd just have to wait for the electric company to chase me to find out which it is and i have no idea how the tv works. If i go first, he gets a nice folder of info with things like water, pensions and a social media will.

My mum is a similar age and the same. Not a clue about insurance etc, has never put petrol in the car, can't use washing machine, doesn't make her own drinks etc

I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were

In my line of work (dv) joint emails, social media etc is a red flag for abuse as it means one of them won’t allow communication they can’t read.

Just for info.

Hi OP - my DM is exactly the same. Married to my DF for 50 years, he died in 2015. She did not know how to use an ATM machine, put fuel in her car, how to use online banking, book an MOT, bring the car for said MOT, book holidays etc.... The list is endless.

I believe it was because she was in a completely co-dependent marriage. My DF adored my DM. My DSis does most of this for her although amazingly enough she has managed to figure out how to use an ATM! My DSis has the patience of a saint!

It’s not always the elderly who have this problem!
I was widowed at 36, and although I was a fully functional hospital doctor and mother of a baby and toddler, I realised I had never put petrol in my car.
MIL accompanied me to the petrol station and explained that the pump would stop automatically when the tank was full - I genuinely thought it would cascade over my feet if I didn’t know in advance how much to put in!
DH had always gassed both cars for us, and cooked dinner for me every night I was on call, as well as doing the supermarket run. It took a bit of practice for me to handle the shopping with a baby and toddler, too.
If I had died instead, DH would have had a similar struggle with the finances - I always did the accounts and tax returns.
OP, cut your MIL some slack. She will be dazed with grief, and in no state to try and learn new tricks for a while.
At her age, that takes longer anyway, even without the exhaustion and mind fog of overwhelming grief. Take one item at a time, with plenty of repetition until she has confidence in her ability, before moving onto another skill set. Praise her for each new skill she acquires. She will get there eventually - we widows all do. We have to.

@everybodysang

is it worth getting an LPA just... in case? I just looked it up and it costs £82 which is a fair amount to us at the moment and we don't really have joint things for anything.

Who for? If it is between a husband and wife just get a joint account for financial matters. If you want your partner to be able to make decisions about your care or health decisions then get one for health but be very sure you have the same views e.g. my husband would never agree to turning off life support but I wouldn't want to be on life support for years so I wouldn't want him making the decisions.

If you are accepting the responsibility of the LPA think carefully. My elderly relative has dementia, I got phone calls from the police as she was phoning 999 all the time, social services didn't want to help it was my problem, the GP expected me to sort out everything. It made me ill. Social services would have had to sort it out if I hadn't signed the papers. I did threaten to resign from the position but they held a gun to my head by saying they would change her carers who she had got to know and who knew her. No reason for it, they just did it because they knew I wouldn't want that for her.

My advice is think carefully, it is a significant responsibility particularly when you are asked to make decisions about potentially life saving procedures which could also result in making their quality of life worse.

babbaloushka Me too, we think FIL would be fine without MIL, but MIL would need a lot of help.

My mother is exactly like this. Now she is widowed it has become apparent how little she is capable of managing out in the world. All technology terrifies her. She has never used a computer and repeated attempts to show her how to use a basic dumb phone were unsuccessful. She is too scared to use a cash point. She won't speak on the phone to anyone other than family. Organising any life admin is completely beyond her.

It creates a burden for me as I have to deal with all her admin and organisation. She expects to be taken care of, chauffeured about and looked after, it doesn't occur to her to try to do things herself. I find it extremely frustrating as she is fit and healthy but just completely incapable of organising life!

You know, maybe it's being widowed that has caused her to lose functions? When I was widowed, in my 30s, I couldn't even follow a simple TV show, it was as if everything was in a foreign language. I had to have my dad help me with the funeral arrangements. He came with me to the bank to sort out finances - I am in a fairly senior civil service role overseeing financial compliance, but I went to pieces and couldn't work things out.

Your MIL may be able to pick things up and comprehend them in usual times, but she's just lost her husband. Widow brain is a well known phenomenon - give her time and kindness.

@PrincessBuggerPants

Are we not allowed discussion anymore?

coming on this forum to whinge about the difficulties you’re having with her just isn’t cricket.

Apparently not. The people being horrible to the recently bereaved OP seem to have an unshakable belief that the OP is not reasonable to have queried a problematic family dynamic on this forum, and believe that they are here to police her attempt to get help.

There is a deeply conservative (with a small c) attitude that is growing on MN at the moment that increasingly frequently tries to demand women prove they are worthy of help and advice only if they prove their reasonableness and innocence to the baying mob. It is quite disturbing.

I don't know if it is the pandemic and lockdown that has led to this increasingly insular, immovable mindset or just the direction of society in general, but it makes me sad.

Well said!

It was the other way round for my DM - she used to do the life admin. My DF passed away first and much as we miss him loads, my DSis and I have had several conversations where we say life would be so much different now if she had gone first because he didn't know how to do basic life admin

I think that in couples, there is often one person like this. It isn’t always the woman, although perhaps more so in older couples (thinking more if 75+ not younger).

One person in the couple is good at admin and competent and takes charge if it early in and the other person just never learns to do it. They lack interest, early on don’t have any need when someone else is doing it and later find it all a bit confusing. It’s very common.

In my family, my Dad has failed to grasp computers and the internet. He is also not good in the phone. He knows that if my Mum dies or is incapacitated he is going to to have a bad time. But it’s not motivated him to get on and learn. They are very much ‘wait for the crisis and then handle it’ kind of people, which is rather ‘head in the sand’.

In my house, I do the admin. I do bills, bank accounts, insurances, car mot and tax , pensions etc etc. I run lots of back accounts and shift money around. DH isn’t interested at all. It’s all written down(has to be or Inwoukdnt be able to remember) but would be tricky for someone else to understand my jottings. We probably need a session where I explain it all. DH wouldn’t enjoy it but at least he’s an age when it really wouldn’t be difficult.

He does know where the wills are kept!

@Camomila

babbaloushka Me too, we think FIL would be fine without MIL, but MIL would need a lot of help.

Ours is exactly the same, it's not an abusive situation, far from it, he just enjoys the tech stuff whereas she couldn't give a toss and would rather be in the garden. It wasn't something I had given much thought, but this thread has made me realise that there is potential for MIL to get left behind, so we can now start mitigating against that, gently. Thanks, OP, you and your DH sound like good people.

@ElphabaTheGreen I really feel for you - this sense of overwhelm.

Can I please repeat the question I started with in my long waffly post - as an OT - have you seen this in your professional work?
I work alongside OTs and see it's a big part of their job, supporting people to achieve independence.
What did this professional experience tell you about how people cope?
Please don't feel I'm saying 'you should have known all this from your job'. I mean this with kindness - can your professional experience help you?

Not sure. My nan is 93 and incredibly switched on but she lost her husband in her early 40s, with six children, so had no choice but to do everything. My mum lost my dad in their early 50s. There were quite a few bits that had always been 'his domain' so she did struggle for a little while then but,once she got more confident doing those things, flourished.

It is odd. My auntie is similar, despite only being mid 60”s and single for a decade or so. She seems to think a mysterious “someone” takes care of stuff. Like @ElphabaTheGreen said about the hospital and funeral directors, she would assume the hospital know the funeral directors and would make arrangements. Then is perplexed and annoyed when things aren’t done

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal same, my mum tries to outsource the more boring jobs to me. But lm sick of life admin as well and l have a full time job. My in laws don’t try the same (or my fiancé), there is zero chance of me doing 5 people’s

Thanks for your post OP. As several people have said, it's been an eye-opener.
I think I need to have a chat with my parents...

I think it’s more a relationship dynamic than generational. My mother is 95, widowed at 60 and has no problems sorting out admin, dealing with tradesmen and keeping a very beady eye on her investments. Most of her surviving friends are equally savvy, but one or two aren’t. One friend’s husband dealt with everything, when he died she couldn’t even write a cheque, and it turned out she was left in straitened circumstances, which were (to her) totally unexpected. Another is continually being ripped off by tradesmen, but again seems unable to do much, certainly wouldn’t get 2 quotes etc. My mother, somewhat disparagingly, refers to them as “spoilt wives”.

I reckon though that a number of relationships slip into one partner doing finances, one practical things etc, and it doesn’t become apparent until divorce/death comes along. My Exh could reverse a trailer in his sleep, so for 27 years he always did trailer reversing. Sometimes I think it would be handy to have a trailer, and then I think in pathetic mode, “oh but I couldn’t reverse it” and so go no further.

I had a relative who lost her husband similar thing, she was in her 80’s husband had done all the admin, car, house etc roles were probably more divided in those days My niece put everything in a folder and went through it with her organised standing orders, monthly incomings outgoings etc and really helped till her confidence returned and she manages much better , she’s even on Facebook now!
Your mother in law is probably still grieving and that can really affect the cognitive process in the brain , with time and gentle support I’m sure she will become a bit more self reliant.
Go gently in the early days grief is a funny thing and we will all be old one day.

A lot of people are taking offence to this, but my DM was exactly like you describe your MIL. And her relationship with my DF was very similar to your in-laws’.

My DM died not long ago, but if she had survived and my DF had died, she would have moved in with one of my siblings for sure.

She had absolutely no idea how to work emails. Wouldn’t have had the first clue about finances. She was a very intelligent woman who worked until almost the end, but left all financial admin to my DF - she also wouldn’t drive herself further than the local supermarket, he used to drive her anywhere else. He is (and was) very kind and loving, these were just the roles they carved out for themselves.

I'm not sure if this helps much but when I worked in a residential home yonks ago, there were quite alot of widows who had absolutely no (like you say and very well worded too!) Life admin skills
They couldn't cope with anything past picking out their outfit for the day and had either been a housewife their whole life or just never really done anything financial or otherwise!
I also had a grandmother who was totally dependent on grandfather x x x x