Is a complete lack of ‘life admin’ skills a common thing, particularly in older women?

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DFIL died recently. DMIL (70 years old) is bereft, quite understandably, because they were that rare, utterly, utterly besotted and devoted couple from the day they met until the day he died 48 years later. I used to use the fact that they even had the one email address as testament to what an inseparable, devoted couple they were (it was [email protected]).

Until it became apparent, now that DFIL has gone, that the lone email address is actually testament to how utterly, utterly devoid of life admin skills DMIL is.

She had no idea how to use the email address. She had no idea how to access their bank accounts. She hadn’t the faintest idea what their incomings/outgoings/savings were. She hadn’t the first clue how to arrange the death certificate or funeral, even when given basic, basic instructions and multiple calls from the bereavement office at the hospital. You might just as well be speaking German to her as having a basic grasp of wills, probate, or transfer of any of DFIL’s accounts to her name. All queries from the solicitor get forwarded to DH to deal with - not because she’s mired in grief but because she cannot grasp requests for even basic information such as confirmation of address. She has no idea how to book her car in for an MOT, no idea how to even put screen wash in her car. My DH has been helping her with all of this, obviously, but when she asked, ‘Will I still be able to afford holidays?’ he just looked at her with slightly desperate incredulity because she wouldn’t have the faintest idea how to book one, she’s never driven further than 20 minutes from her house by herself (DFIL drove anything further) so would never know how to get to an airport or onto an aeroplane by herself, navigate a foreign country, arrange and deal with foreign currency...

DH and I thought she had managed her own father’s finances and funeral up until he died a couple of years ago but nope - DFIL did it all.

DH is gobsmacked at how lacking in basic skills she is to the point that he’s wondering if she’s even in an early stage of dementia. I don’t think she is, because she is slowly picking up on bits here and there and I think there’s light at the end of the tunnel in giving her some basic competency in running her own life. I think all of the above was just always and entirely DFIL’s responsibility in which she had zero interest so was perfectly happy leaving all the ‘hard stuff’ to him. What we’re not sure of is whether there might have been an element of DFIL realising how utterly inept DMIL was at all of it from the get go and just took over sharpish because it was easier.

What flummoxes me about this, though, is she’s the first generation of women, surely, who would have grown up with the understanding that women could and should be as self-sufficient as possible so would surely have felt some obligation to keep herself more informed and engaged, particularly in their finances? She went back to work after DH was born (their only child) so it’s not like she clung entirely to the role of 50s housewife. What’s more, she was a secondary teacher, working up until 2010 or 2011 so she would have worked well into the technological revolution. She would surely have used computers and email for work, needed to use PowerPoint, Word (DH was showing her the other day how to cut and paste in an email which was new to her...). Her main subject was home economics/food technology but I’m pretty sure her final years were spent doing relief in the one school. Looking at her now, I have a feeling she may have been one of those relief teachers who the kids were delighted to get - a period of sacking off maths because Mrs DH’sMum has no clue on the subject but instead she’d ruffle their hair and reminisce about how she taught their parents.

Before anyone suggests financial abuse on the part of DFIL - no, not the slightest chance. He was the kindest man to ever walk the earth. By contrast, if I ever needed help with childcare, it was DMIL I’d arrange it with as she was their very efficient social secretary - DFIL was scatty as fuck with anything like that. He also never ironed a shirt in his life, packed a suitcase or switched on a hoover - that was her department. So they had clearly defined roles. Nevertheless, if she’d gone first, DFIL would have managed living independently far better than it looks like she will because he knew how to function in the wider world.

Very, very long ramble to basically ask, how common is this? Is she unusually lacking in skills to manage her own life or is this an alarmingly frequent occurrence?

CrazyHorse

But if they have never done these things how is it a grief thing?

I dont think your MIL is that unusual at all, as others have said in long term relationships there can be an unspoken dividing of jobs that like any other situation 'could' de-skill a person over time from thinking they can do stuff. I do not see myself as particularly IT literate but I work in a field where I have to do it - as a result I keep learning and even teach myself when the 'help desk' is not helpful. Having been in LTRs and been single for a long time I can completely see how easy it is to delegate/abdicate a load of jobs to a partner and yes, its shocking when something happens and they are suddenly gone and you have to pick it all back up.

What interests me is that it sounds like you are shocked at your MILs arrangement with her husband and your husband has stepped into the taking over role quite significantly - your MIL is probably still grieving but she probably could pick a lot of this stuff up if she is supported to do so. Humans are incredibly adaptable provided we have a belief and a will that we can. It is when we are beaten down with loss/shock and the judgementalism of others - that we might not think we can do stuff and develop some self neglect behaviours. Give your MIL a chance, be patient with her and help her regain the knowledge and skills to develop her autonomy - she may surprise you about how she can rally to the challenge.

I don’t think it’s that unusual, either for someone of her age or even younger. People arrange their tasks within a relationship however it suits them. I’m in my fifties, been married 25 years, I’ve always worked full time in a very stressful job, as has my husband. He does our finances with our joint accounts. We earn similar money. He’s not in charge of it, but I’m happy for him to sort it. We discuss everything and make joint decisions, but we do what works for us. Not sure why it’s a big deal. Conversely I have female friends who sort the finances in their relationships. Each to their own.

I think there are plenty of women likes this around (but that likewise there are many men who would struggle with certain aspects of running a life). I have found out recently that our neighbours do all the paperwork of some others neighbours (in their 70s), including their tax return etc., because they just haven't got a clue.

I have a friend who is like this too. Has never done a tax return, does not do even legally-required admin (like ID-card renewal, liability insurance, etc) without help. She is in her 50s. This is definitely a family thing in her case. Her father did all the "man" jobs (car, bank, etc) and her mother all the "woman" jobs (food, cleaning, etc). The mother has died now and the father doesn't even know how to make a sandwich. It's scary!

To be honest, my father's skills in the kitchen mean that he would probably struggle if he found himself alone. He and my mother have been married of 50 years and they have developped habits in that time.

DH doesn't know how our washing machine works. That's because I do the washing and he does the ironing and the machine is new. If he needed to use it he'd just get on with it though. He knows where the instruction book is.

I guess it's the helplessness that's bewildering. To answer your question OP, I think it's more common that people might realise. However, the good news in your case is that she seems to be picking things up. You may need to put up defences to stop admin from being pushed your way, but it does sound as though she could cope

Something else which I keep threatening to do is to develop some sort of system for dealing with post. I go through phases where things are immediately actioned and filed on receipt and through lengthier phases where nothing gets read really and just thrown in a pile to be dealt with when I've time. Of course, they never get dealt with until the build-up drives me barmy and I succumb to the pile of filing and discover all sorts of things-to-do.

You could buy different coloured folders for people struggling

1. Filing - a filing cabinet might be a good present?
2. Bills
3. Need to renew or change supplier
4. Medical appointments (can be extensive for some people)
5. Needs to be responded to by call/letter/email

and whatever else they feel would be appropriate

A hard copy diary is a must for me. An absolute must.

And now I'm off to take my own advice. in a minute

After my Dad died, my mum was lost in how to run the household finances. She didn't and still doesn't have a clue. She's 83 & doesn't have a mobile nor laptop. Me and my sister have poa & we do everything admin-wise for her. My sister spent months going through every monthly / quarterly and annual bill and changing them to have her details, moving payments to direct debit and having online banking access all setup. It took over 2 years to get this all done and it's all sorted now. She is oblivious to the effort it took but thankful we have a handle on it.

My parents were like this, except that dad was the “helpless” one. He was incredibly intelligent and had a (very important) career, and my mum was a SAHP parent after her first child was born. She did absolutely everything except earn the money. Dad could drive at least, but literally all he had to do was take himself off to work while my mum managed us, the house and finances. It worked for them, but thank goodness dad died first because he’d have been utterly dependent on us children without her. Mum struggles a little with technology, but is otherwise fiercely independent despite being physically disabled.

My MIL is 80 and exactly the same. FIL does everything. She is a loose cannon to be fair to him so I can see why. She was a teacher and also HoD which I find astounding. My own mother is also exactly the same and never learnt to drive. In her case though she was widowed very early in her early 50s, now 70s and has learnt to do a remarkable amount really - give your MIL a chance, she will get some of it.

It's a salient life lesson though - women tend to live longer than men and there does seem to be a generationally thing for this group of women whcih means they have a steep learning curve towards the end of their lives - my MIL has never written a cheque for example and neither had my mother until my father died. I will never allow myself to be so dependant on one other person now having seen this.

@Piglet89

I’m not puzzled at all about why the OP is getting a hard time. Her mother in law has, as others have said, just experienced a profound bereavement, losing her life partner of nearly 5 decades. Major, shocking life change. But, instead of just privately trying to help her or displaying some empathy, she comes on and slags her off on an anonymous forum and makes nasty comments about the kind of teacher she suspects she was.

What difference does it really make if this situation common or not? The reality is that your own MIL is displaying these tendencies - just deal with the situation in front of you. Plus, she’s been kind enough to help with childcare too.

It’s not a nice OP.

Have you bothered to read a single one of my updates where I’ve said how much help we’re giving her?

No. Because it’s far easier and more satisfying to make broad brush stroke assumptions based on one post alone, to justify coming on and sticking the boot in.

Of course not. Some people have poor life skills, some don’t. It’s not and never has been a generational thing.
I’m in my late 60s and am often astounded by the cluelessness of some younger people (especially when I have to help them with IT), but I don’t generalise to all younger people.

My parents married at 19 and after now in their 60s. Dm does all the life admin and I know I’ll need to help df if dm died first. He’s a perfectly competent man who worked in IT management yet he has no clue re finances (as it is dm’s role). My grandmother is 94 and her son does her finances now.

I think some of these replies are a touch unkind. 70 is not young! She is part of a generation that often relied on their DH for many things.She is also grieving and that will have an effect on her as well.Often although capable its just easier to lean on her DH, and many women were like this.I have a couple of friends in their 60s who have full driving licences but never drive as their DH does! I dont think you are alone in this at all.My own DM went to pieces when DSD died .She wasnt used to doing it alone as it were .She would cook ,clean ,and work PT .DSD did all the driving ,admin and so on .Like you we were asked to help a lot !

My mum is 70 and my dad died a few years ago. She worked full time in a very demanding, senior role until quite recently but I could have written your post word for word. She married at 22 to slightly older man and left him to it.

Are we not allowed discussion anymore?

OP has posted a reasonable point and wanted to know if this was specific to her MIL or if other people had experienced it. She sounds lovely and helpful towards MIL. Some people on here will see offence in anything.

They just had their roles, I guess, and it meant that this situation was inevitable.
As someone suggested upthread get bills etc onto direct debit, if they are not already so that there is less paperwork coming her way.
She will be grieving and will need time to process the loss. But in time, learning some new skills might prove a distraction.

Encourage her, in due course to get to grips with some basics. A tablet / iPad can be an easy way for someone to get online and enjoy a new dimension to their world.

My friends MIL is exactly as described by the OP. It’s caused an immense amount of stress for her DH but a few years on from his father’s death she’s slowly become more self sufficient and can manage most of the life admin herself. He still has to sort anything remotely out of the ordinary, eg an insurance renewal.

Haven’t RTFT, so apologies if this is a repeat. There could be an underlying issue such as ADHD or dyscalculia which meant she would always have struggled with these sorts of things, so DFil just did it all as it was easier.

Be kind.

I have been in two banks in the last couple of days. Both times I witnessed older customers being directed to online or ATM services. Both times they were wound up and disgruntled by this.
Don’t underestimate how fast the pace of life has changed. Many older people miss face to face interaction and feel disenfranchised by life atm.

I used to work in benefits and met a lot of bereaved women who had no idea how or where to pay bills or sort out general life admin. This was 30 years ago and it was very common. My friend’s husband looks after her as he believes that it is his role to provide for her and protect her ( been married 50 years) . It’s quite sweet . The difference is that she is very capable and could take over if anything happened to him.

My experience is that it is often men who lack life admin skills and leave a lot up to their very capable wives so I don’t see this as a male/female thing really.
What I would say is that in any long relationship people take on roles and responsibilities that the other person doesn’t ever do. When I got together with my husband (a lot of years ago!) I could do some very basic diy stuff but he’s so much better at it than me that gradually I stopped doing anything and wouldn’t have much of a clue now - although there is YouTube of course!

Similarly there is stuff he just doesn’t do because I do it, frankly running a home, family, car etc etc is a lot for one person and often it is easier to split the jobs and then you might for example not have organised an MOT for thirty years! It doesn’t mean that you’re not capable it just means that jobs are allocated to who does them best and if one of them dies the other is left flummoxed.
A good reminder to make sure you know what your other half does, where stuff is kept, bank account passwords etc just in case something happens to one of you.

Sounds like they had split the tasks exactly how they wanted, and suited them.

After all, he did the admin, she did the shirts. etc.

I am an accountant, spend all day looking after other people's money. I have no idea how much money our household has, how much our mortgage is, who the insurance is with.

DW does all that at home!

@ElphabaTheGreen I actually have read all of your updates. Every single one.

They do not negate some of the really quite unpleasant elements of your OP.

This stuff is common sense, really. The reality is, as they say, what it is. You’re confronted with the situation before you. You’re helping her, sure - which is better than not, but your OP tells me that you’re starting to regard it as a bit of a chore to do so and you’re worried about having to continue to do so.

It’s not true empathetic behaviour.

70s not that old I'm surprised by this. If you said 90 maybe. As a result of technology and the man doing everything in a ver traditional relationship. But my grandparents are mid 80s and this doesn't describe my grandma at all.

@ElphabaTheGreen, are you still there?
Normally I stick to the Style board but I wanted to post.
I see two people - your mother-in-law and you - who are clearly lovely, but in shock and feeling overwhelmed.
Your mum-in-law because of grief. You have to remember this. An earlier poster (Tea someone?) put this beautifully when recalling her experiences when her partner left - she is in trauma. When you're in this state, your rational brain switches off.
Yes, there are individual factors/generational factors at play, but you or I could feel like this. It's not an 'incapable older lady' thing. A very good friend of mine lost his wife in his thirties. He went through a period very reminiscent of your mum-in-law. Needed support to decide which socks to choose. He's now perfectly capable and confident again.
My mum went through a similar period. Again, she's no Katherine Hepburn and she won't ever be, but she can read a bank statement again.
Thinking of you - I really relate to your feelings. The panic, the overwhelm, the 'Have I now got a 5 foot 2 toddler on my hands; this is too much; this isn't fair; I have my own life; I can bloody do it so why can't she?' But unless there is something individual to her going on, she won't stay in this state.
She needs love, time and companionship. It's so, so hard doing things on your own - even when you know how to do them. It's SAD. Even when you can choose a holiday or an energy provider for yourself, you DON'T WANT TO; you want them back. You want them back so you can do it together. You want them back so you can argue with them in the middle of Tesco's.
Eventually you accept it, because you have to. it's one of the hardest things we have to do, keep living when our love is gone. (I speak of those of us who are lucky to have good partnerships, of course). But you need time to do it.
I wonder if our (OP I include myself with you) are baffled at the bereaved person's helplessness because being baffled is safer than accepting fully that one day it will be us, too. We might be in a better position to find the trip switch if the electricity goes off. But the absolute power of grief - we can't plan or to-do-list or google search our way out of that.
I am genuinely and in a spirit of kindness interested that you are an OT. You probably won't have time to think about this, but I'm curious about how your professional experience relates to this experience. In theory (as other posters have said) it should help your understanding but I do understand how there's a big difference between helping a client (whom you can 'put down' at the end of the day) and having the same trauma unfurl in your own family. I work in a similar field and I find I have a lot of patients for our clients, but when someone is behaving similarly in our family, it scares the crap out of me and my prof empathy goes out the window.
Sorry for long post - just ignore anything that is my story rather than yours.

Not about age, or sex, but about the roles we take on and the interest we have in being in control perhaps? My Dad did nothing admin wise till Mum died, but working with him he soon learned how. I support people who struggle with their finances and debt and I can assure you that it is nothing to do with age, sex, but education and interest in most instances. There is a post going around on FB, from an 18 year old, lamenting why school failed to teach her about mortgages and finance deals and I feel this post misses the point that it is something that should happen at home and from an early age? Do we not want to prepare people to make the right decisions about their household admin and wasn't this ability to manage a household once thought of as vital? Financial literacy is very important to us all and maybe we should take the learning from this post and start the upskilling in this area of household admin as a matter of priority for all?