If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

As long as they don't make smug, self-congratulatory comments about how they're prioritising their kids' emotional resilience and security much more than those feckless WOHPs do, what does it matter?

Less judgment all round would be good.

Certainly agree with you. And yes I’m entitled to self congratulate myself for making the choice that is best for MY kids emotional resilience and security based on MY family dynamics that’s nobody else’s business.

I don’t think it’s the same for all other families. In other families I don’t think the mother needs to stay at home to achieve that and I’m a strong advocate for that.

But i think those that are judgemental on both sides of the argument and find that the choices of others being up their insecurities need to re evaluate their options.

I have little time for people who think they’re special enough that they should sit outwith the judgement of others. We all judge each other, for better or worse, all the time. It literally guides all our interactions and our values and principles. Better to realise that everyone will judge you and that they also won’t care much about you.

No insecurities here! I’m extremely happy with my choices
I think I’ve hit a raw nerve with you about something though.

Also not earning is literally the definition of less valuable. Kids do not benefit from you doing extra housework whilst they’re at school.

AlexaShutUp

I think you do need to check your unconscious bias towards posters who I’m directing my words to who are incredibly undermining of SAHM, and then you say you are not judgemental.

SpongebobNoPants

Yes you did hit a nerve with me. Because you sound like my friends who I valued their friendships but they couldn’t let go of trying to make themselves feel better by constantly putting down my choices and so I had to make the hard choice of dropping a long term friendship because they couldn’t get over their insecurity.

They were indeed incredibly insecure. I still held on to lots of others though. Who are a bit more level headed and logical.

@DeepThinkingGirl, I don't need to check my unconscious bias to see that there have been some incredibly smug and judgemental comments on both sides, including some of your own.

Naturally, I have my own perspective on this, and I am not going to react well to silly digs towards WOHPs from SAHPs who clearly regard themselves as superior parents, but I am equally able to see that calling SAHPs lazy or boring or whatever is unnecessary and ridiculous.

In my world, there are good people and not-so-good people. And there are good parents and not-so-good parents. Being a WOHP or SAHP has no bearing on either.

I doubt it was insecurity, I don’t feel in the least bit insecure that I’m financially independent and have a successful career.
I have, however, had friends who are SAHPs who irritated the shit out of me by complaining how tired they were, how much they had to do around the house and incessantly complaining that their partner’s didn’t pull their weight with the household chores after working 8+ hours a day whilst they’d had all that time to themselves.

I phased them out because of the sheer tediousness of their complaints... so perhaps my “lazy” view is coloured somewhat by my actual personal experience of a group of these women.

You’re right though, I don’t know you or your reasons. They’re obviously valid to you.
But the OP asked if we judged SAHPs... my answer is yes in the first instance but it doesn’t mean I can’t change my mind as I learn more about people’s personal circumstances.

but it doesn’t mean I can’t change my mind as I learn more about people’s personal circumstances.

It shouldn’t be this way though. No one should put someone else in a position of guilty until proven innocent until they explain their very personal decisions.

I think staying at home for the family or going to work is for many incredibly personal. I think it’s very arrogant to expect that a person has to “earn” your respect if they parent from home.

Friendships die when people have to work for your approval as if you are some sort of superior.

You wouldn’t like it if someone says, “I judge working morning until I learn about their personal circumstances”. I genuinely don’t, I find it to be a very personal decisions between a husband and wife based on multiple factors and not just finances..

It’s such a polarised arguments between those that think I’m either incredibly privileged that I should shut up and suck it up or that I’m
Incredibly pitty-worthy that I must have extenuating circumstances to want to make that choice.

How about, it’s simply that this choice suits me and my family dynamics and my parenting style?? And I’m willing to make compromises to obtain it?! And that I’m aware of the financial insecurity it puts me in for the future and I’m making a calculated choice knowingly?

Also not earning is literally the definition of less valuable. Kids do not benefit from you doing extra housework whilst they’re at school.

Seriously ! Look at what you just said. It’s quite sad if I’m honest. That’s a very shallow thing to say. I think you are on the other end of the spectrum from my parenting style for sure so if we were ever friends I would avoid discussing children with you.

I think you are on the other end of the spectrum from my parenting style for sure so if we were ever friends I would avoid discussing children with you
And this isn’t rude and judgemental? My kids are everything to me, I am doing this for them. Also I never said I work out of the home, I’m predominantly home based so my kids get the best of it all to be honest.

I would agree though that we’re very different people and unlikely to be pals in real life.

I also think being a SAHP when you’re reliant on your partner to provide all the financial support is very naive and precarious.

Anyway, we’ve both said our pieces. Genuinely hope you have a nice half term @DeepThinkingGirl, I’m off to sleep.

My best friend is a sahm and her kids are at school. I do wonder what she does all day.
I have a career and 3 kids and have always worked full time but I am envious of parents who can afford to not have a job and spend lots of time with their children. I'm sure for many being a sahm is hard. I know working full time and having kids is hard.

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

I must just be dense then, as I still don’t understand what benefit a child gets from having a parent at home while they’re at school rather than one who is at work while they’re at school. The only answer given so far is that they do all the housework so the child isn’t neglected in favour of Henry Hoover in the evenings, but apart from that we seem to be drawing a blank.

The sums don't add up though. It may be entirely possible to work part-time while a child attends school, but, with the exception of teachers possibly, most full-time jobs have longer hours than the typical school day/ year. Where I am (Ireland) the school day runs from 8.50am - 2.30pm (approx) for seven to 12 years olds. Five and six year olds finish at 1.30pm, and three and four year olds have an optional three hour day. The school year is 183 working days, which works out as 15.4 weeks holiday per year. So someone working fulltime will have to be absent some of the time a SAHM is present. I'm not for a minute claiming that affects the quality of their parenting btw. Just pointing out that things aren't as simple as 'the child is at school while the parent is working' as you appear to be saying.

No one should put someone else in a position of guilty until proven innocent until they explain their very personal decisions

People do that all the time though. You just have spend 5 minutes browsing mumsnet to see it. I rarely tell anyone (in the real world) why I'm a sahm because I'm ashamed, not of being at home with the kids but of the circumstances behind me being too ill to work. Oddly enough I think I'd rather be labelled spoilt, lazy and useless than explain myself.

I had a discussion with a "friend" recently about returning to work once my youngest turns 3 and gets her 1140 hours of free preschool (6 hours a day in term time). She was judgemental because I'm "only" going to be looking for retail type work. She doesn't know how ill I was or that to return to the sector I used to work in (or to follow through with the plans I had), I'd have to disclose my diagnoses and that I'm still under the Adult mental health team. Compared to that my degrees, experience and voluntary work are nothing.

Therein lies the issue really, it's far more nuanced than the debate ever allows for. I mean could we even agree what a sahm is? Is it purely on whether you get paid? I personally don't think studying for a degree and doing voluntary work stops me from being a sahm. Others may disagree.

Only when they try to give me advice on juggling parenting and working tbh.

Xiomara.. I came across one once and I learn a lot about her heritage through her name. And loved it

I only judge when SAHP with dc in school go on about how hard a job it is to run the home and manage the dc like no working parent experiences that as well as working

I had been a sahm and now ft wfh mum. I don't have to work but I don't want to be financially dependent.

The only time I judge was when my neighbour send her kids to day nursery when she was not working.

I don't judge sahm, I was busy when I was one, we had many pets, clean house, cooked meals, after school activities, I looked after all finances for the household so my husband didnt have to etc. All of these are done during weekdays, I was proper busy as my husband also out most evenings for work, gym, pub etc! Weekend was the only time I can chill a little. Although admittedly I felt very judged at the time.

Now I don't see anyone at school gate therefore I can't even see anyone to judge me! But I do feel people have more respects to me as a working mum as I am not "just a mother who look after kids, clean, cook and spend husband's money."

National charities and larger charities pay staff. Many local, and often pretty essential charities do not have the funds and structure to do so. I have volunteered for and been trustee, and financial officer in a number of the latter, dealing directly with the charities commission.

I find it amusing how some profess to not judge, yet go on to do that very thing in their unpleasant remarks!

I’ve been thinking about this more and I think I do judge SAHMs because:

• I can’t imagine wasting my intellectual and creative abilities on stretching out household drudgery to fill the days

• As long as there are women who choose not to work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways, we are perpetuating gender inequality. Staying at home to cook and iron shirts because ‘husband has a high flying career’ makes me feel nauseous for the future of our daughters.

"She could change her mind, she might not.
Difference is I love her whatever she decides and I'd never be disappointed in a choice that made her happy, potential or not."

Devlesko I don't have a DD, but if I did I would support her choice in being a SAHM or WOHM - as long as she was happy that's all that matters.

"My best friend is a sahm and her kids are at school. I do wonder what she does all day."

She might be pleasuring herself all day for all you know, but whatever she does it's surely her business?

She could be going through mental health issues etc. How do you know?

@OrangeSamphire

I’ve been thinking about this more and I think I do judge SAHMs because:

• I can’t imagine wasting my intellectual and creative abilities on stretching out household drudgery to fill the days

• As long as there are women who choose not to work, create or contribute to society in meaningful ways, we are perpetuating gender inequality. Staying at home to cook and iron shirts because ‘husband has a high flying career’ makes me feel nauseous for the future of our daughters.

I don't understand the first point at all.

I work and I can tell you now that my job does not require any "intellectual and creative abilities". I do basic admin so I spend my days filing and stapling. You don't have to have a job to do something creative or intellectual. You're assuming that SAHPs just do housework all day, many of them will be doing other things.

And I still have to go home and do all the household drudgeries after work.

"You don't have to have a job to do something creative or intellectual. "

Valid point. Being creative can happen in your free time 🤷

In fact I find it hilarious that you can only be creative and intellectual in paid employment. What?!? You can't do that whenever you want??? Both are not mutually exclusive 🤣

@blowinahoolie

In fact I find it hilarious that you can only be creative and intellectual in paid employment. What?!? You can't do that whenever you want??? Both are not mutually exclusive 🤣

My paid employment is probably the least creative thing I do and the least interesting part of my life!

Nowhere did I say that paid employment is the only route to creative and intellectual fulfilment.

But ‘running a household’ certainly isn’t either. And that is what many SAHPs seem to say that the do with their time.