If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

[quote SpongebobNoPants]@camaieux but she’s not a SAHM.
You’re arguing apples are oranges at this point
I was the poster who said I do judge parents of school aged, who have healthy school aged kids, they themselves are healthy and choose not to work. I would consider it lazy.
Your friend is working, there is no “lumping in”. She’s not sitting at home all day, she’s working.[/quote]
No! This is not just about semantics. My friend gave up a good career to be able to be able to spend more time with her dc, just like thousands of other sah parents. She and her DH had very full on careers prior to that and owing to their particular location and field of work, something had to give. She did no voluntary work at all when her DC were small but then did it on the side when they got older. Like thousands of other sahms. You and others are making block assumptions and negative judgements about a group of women you don't know.

You said in your original post:
It depends... I judge SAHM’s who live solely on the income of their partner and/or benefits.
Also those with kids who are all of school age, I’d find it hard to respect them to be honest.
Sounds harsh but I would probably think they’re lazy or not very bright.

You incorrectly included my friend in that block assumption. She is dynamic and far from "not very bright". She has followed a path that many sahm take. Leaving their jobs to look after small DC, then volunteering later on. By making lazy and incorrect assumptions about her, you are making lazy and incorrect assumptions about many.

You incorrectly included my friend in that block assumption
No, you put your friend in that category and assumed I meant her. She is not a SAHM.

It’s grand to be able to do what you want all the time - volunteering or going to the gym or whatever. What’s objectionable is people who aren’t able to own how fortunate they are to be in that position, and complain that they want to ‘not be judged’, or more accurately they do want to be judged as having a lifestyle that’s just as complex/time-poor/laborious as the lives of people who juggle all the same responsibilities alongside paid employment.

I couldn't really care less if SAHPs of school aged children are busy during the day or not. It isn't my concern. If they are occupied with housework/chores that I might consider superfluous, then fair enough - they obviously consider those tasks to be worth doing, and perhaps they just have different priorities from mine. If they have tons of free time that they use to do whatever they please, all power to them. There is nothing for me to judge.

My concerns if my dd became a SAHP would centre more around the likely loss of financial independence and the potential loss of her own identity/sense of purpose beyond the home, as these were both issues for my own mum and I have observed similar in some other SAHPs I know. I don't think either of these issues are inevitable, by any means, but I would be advising my dd to plan very carefully to avoid them. So many SAHPs seem to lose their confidence after a long period at home, and find it hard to get back into decent paid employment. That potentially leaves them in quite a vulnerable position when their kids leave home. I wouldn't want to see my dd in the position of my mother, who bitterly regrets what she perceives as her wasted potential.

If SAHPs have protected themselves adequately from a financial perspective and have a well-constructed plan for how they're going to spend their time after their kids grow up and leave home, then good for them and I hope that they enjoy however they end up spending their time.

I certainly don't think paid employment is the be-all and end-all, but I do think that every woman owes it to herself to have an identity and sense of purpose that goes beyond the roles of wife and mother - whether that is played out in voluntary work, hobbies or whatever else is meaningful for them as individuals.

@MiddleParking

I do realise it - I know a great deal about that sector. That doesn’t really have anything to do with my point that I don’t consider pp’s “oxbridge” friend ‘amazing’ for doing lots of voluntary work because she’s lucky enough not to have to work a paid job.

We, no one was asking you to think of her as amazing. I was asking people on here not to make the blanket assumption that all sahms are lazy and unintelligent and I mentioned my friend as an example of that.

Also, I never said my assumptions were infallible. My first thought would be to consider them lazy, yes. I’m happy to be proved wrong but my first instinct without other information would be to judge. I’m being honest.

@MiddleParking I completely agree.

My concerns if my dd became a SAHP would centre more around the likely loss of financial independence and the potential loss of her own identity/sense of purpose beyond the home, as these were both issues for my own mum and I have observed similar in some other SAHPs I know

I also completely agree with this which is why I’m trying to educate and would advise my DD against being a SAHP. I would be disappointed for her.

@SpongebobNoPants

You incorrectly included my friend in that block assumption No, you put your friend in that category and assumed I meant her. She is not a SAHM.

I've no wish to go back and forth on this but I have just explained why she is NOT untypical of many sahms who give up careers to spend more time with their DC and then volunteer later on when the DC go to school. I don't think I can be any clearer about it.

We, no one was asking you to think of her as amazing.

You specifically said that I would be amazed by her achievements in her voluntary work. I was simply pointing out that, in fact, I wouldn’t.

@camaieux a double first from oxbridge and a highly influential voluntary role is far from typical of the SAHP’s I know. I’d say she’s rather an outlier and exceptional to be honest.

I don’t understand the judgement and arguments. Ultimately people make the decision that is best for their family.
In all of this women get all the shit! SAHM and working mums both have to sacrifice something whilst majority of men don’t. Instead of judging other women for their situation we should judge the patriarchal society that may have forced that situation on them. A lack of meaningful part time rolls, the gender pay gap, unaffordable childcare and the division or assets and lack of security for women all plays a roll here.
No one bats an eye lid when a man retires early because he can afford to and spends all day playing golf. No one calls him lazy or judges him ? Or says he’s left himself vulnerable in case his wife runs off with another man.
Wether you agree or not women are entitled to a choice and to decide what works for them. I for one am not going to shit on another woman or belittle them because they choose to work or stay home when it’s a tough decision and as women in society we are all disadvantaged anyway!

*Sorry for the typos I’ve had a couple glasses

@MiddleParking

It’s grand to be able to do what you want all the time - volunteering or going to the gym or whatever. What’s objectionable is people who aren’t able to own how fortunate they are to be in that position, and complain that they want to ‘not be judged’, or more accurately they do want to be judged as having a lifestyle that’s just as complex/time-poor/laborious as the lives of people who juggle all the same responsibilities alongside paid employment.

My friends and I DO acknowledge how fortunate we are. Some of us are sahm and some work pt. (I also have woh friends who consider themselves very fortunate too.) But there's a world of difference between calling yourself fortunate, and others calling you fortunate, and not wanting to be called lazy and unintelligent.

@MiddleParking

We, no one was asking you to think of her as amazing.

You specifically said that I would be amazed by her achievements in her voluntary work. I was simply pointing out that, in fact, I wouldn’t.

Fair enough but I think it's fairly obvious I meant "amazed" in the sense of being surprised. Not in the sense of you thinking she was marvellous.

[quote SpongebobNoPants]@camaieux a double first from oxbridge and a highly influential voluntary role is far from typical of the SAHP’s I know. I’d say she’s rather an outlier and exceptional to be honest.[/quote]
I've explained already very clearly that what is typical about her and many other sahms is her giving up her career to look after DC and then taking up voluntary work. Many sahms of my acquaintance do this no matter what their level of education!

@Ragwort

Middle the vast majority of charities do not have paid staff, you must realise that.

I've worked for two charities , they have to pay decent money to get decent staff. I was paid the same as if I'd been in the public sector.

Yes I’m a SAHM and I felt extremely judged.

I had a really important career that I gave up so that doesn’t help. But I started being judged from the time my first born was 4 months.. and then it made me realise that people didn’t value my role as a primary care giver and I was determined to not let them sway my decision which at the time wasn’t even formed and I was quietly working on a project to launch when he was one..

But I decided, that society doesn’t value mothers and shall no longer listen to anything outside my gut. And so far 3 years into it and absolutely no regrets.

But I do struggle with the judgement. Had to cut out a friend who made me feel like I was failing in life.

I have someone working for me who is on an expat contract. He and his partner have three children; the youngest of whom is 8. They are not married and she doesn’t work. They also own no property in their home country. I think she is amazingly vulnerable, not least because there are a lot of rumours flying around (which I will have to raise with him next week) about him and his much younger assistant. If he and his partner split up, what will happen to her, and where will she go? Her status here depends on his employment.

But I wouldn’t be surprised either. Frankly it’s a shoulder shrug from me - I should really hope anyone that has c. forty hours a week more free time than me is getting something done with it. This is what I mean, it’s like it’s not enough that you’re lucky enough to have someone else funding your life, you also want good press for it. I don’t pretend not to find that irritating.

@Blyatiful that’s a terrible situation That poor woman!

I work nearly FT. I really couldn't care less if other mums don't, or even worry about what they do with their time. If it works for them, then great for them.

It’s off topic, but just to say that that poster is right, the vast majority of charity work is not undertaken by paid staff but by volunteers.

Blyatiful What a horrible situation. She is in a vulnerable position.

DeepThinkingGirl You're probably better off without a friend like that.

Don't judge them. It's weird when people say it isn't hard being at home with kids - I would find it really bad having hardly any alone time / adult interaction. I am less tired after my days at work than my Fridays at home with my younger one 😅