If you're a SAHM, do you feel judged? And if you're a working mum, do you judge a SAHM?

[ItalianRed]

Hi,

So I've been out of work for 15 years, apart from a couple of part time jobs here and there. I have a teenager and so have the time, but for several reasons, I'm not currently working. Financially, I don't need to, but there are other reasons too.

I often see on social media, the debate about SAHMs once dc are in school and if it's lazy or even anti feminist to not go back to work.

A couple of my friends recently dug themselves a hole on separate occasions when talking about a school mum friend who didn't work. One said "what does she actually do all day? Her husband even does the cooking some nights!" And the other said "She must be so bored and feel like she doesn't have a real identity". They were both quick to clumsily back track and say they're not referring to me because I'm obviously different Why? Because I'm their friend? I'm still a woman who chooses not to work and who, shock horror, doesn't cook ever single family meal! 😲

In the past when I've heard similar comments, I'd say don't worry about it, you've not offended me etc, even if they had because I didn't want them to feel awkward or embarrassed, but this last time I just smiled and said nothing. One of them even said that this particular mum is perfectly nice, but she needs to keep her at "arms length", for no other reason that I could see other than she didn't work.

The more I thought about it, the more it pissed me off. They're really judgey, bitchy comments to make. It seems as though if you do choose to be a SAHM, then unless you're constantly scrubbing, cleaning, cooking, volunteering and on various committees, then you're looked down on.

Be interesting to hear your perspectives....

@bathsoup

I am a SAHM with a husband who works long hours in a high flying career.

I think it's sad that many of you think you will have nothing in common with a SAHM. I have a first class degree and read widely on a huge range of interesting topics.

SAHMs might surprise you if you give them a chance!

I'll be friends (or fiends!) with you too.

I said in my earlier posts, I often justify myself unnecessarily when i say I'm a sahm because people automatically assume I'm a bit thick or couldn't possibly have had a career before children because if I had why on earth would I have given it up? It doesn't occur to people that I wanted to! The industry sucked the damn soul out of me, money isn't everything.

My DH is a high-ish earner but I was a decent earner myself five years ago (not mega high but higher rate taxpayer).

I also like to talk about things other than children, I'm with them all day long so I quite like having a break from child-related chatter!

I'm sure there are men who do step up when their wives return to work, but there's enough threads on here that suggest many men think women going back to work means zero change on the domestic front.

And is perhaps why expecting differently is sometimes doomed to fail. If a man has built his career off the back of having a SAH partner and then that partner goes back to work it’s going to be harder to achieve an equal balance then if he has a partner who went back to work after maternity leave or, even better, shared parental leave. I saw this happen with my mum and dad, he’s not an arsehole but having had a SAH wife for about a decade, it’s harder to change something that has already become the norm than something that never became entrenched in the first place.

Wow. So much for the sisterhood. Just lovely on here to see how disparaging some women are about other women on here. And lovely to see how dismissive people are about their own mothers too.

‘The sisterhood’ doesn’t require me to lie about being people amazing and competent when they aren’t.
Nor does it require me to gaslight myself about how organised or otherwise my own mother was

It’s plain fact that many people are plain useless at adult life.
It’s also plain fact that a lot of those useless people I’ve encountered are SAHM

All I’m suggesting is that I’m not sure being a SAHM is what has caused them to be useless.
I think they are predisposed to uselessness, and that’s why they grabbed the opportunity to be SAHM, because it’s easier to disguise your uselessness when you only have minimal responsibility and routine
The same useless people get found out when they are in jobs

I would be friends with a SAHM, but if they carried on SAH beyond the child starting school I have to be honest, I wouldn’t respect them. If I was the working partner of a SAHD (or mum, I date both) I would resent them staying at home beyond young primary age, and I would insist on them returning to work because I don’t want to bankroll another adult. Whether they earned the same or less than me isn’t an issue - it’s the sharing of the financial burden that matters. And of course I would share the household/childcare duties.

That’s not comparable IMO to someone having to give up work due to ill health or to care for a disabled child - those things are out of your control.

As I explained in my earlier post I feel that a woman staying at home while a man works is an archaic set up, and people continuing to make that choice does not advance societal support for mothers, or encourage men to step up. I don’t feel it’s comparable to SAHDs because that’s still seen as a progressive set up, whereas in the not too distant past, many women didn’t have a choice.

@GappyValley

Wow. So much for the sisterhood. Just lovely on here to see how disparaging some women are about other women on here. And lovely to see how dismissive people are about their own mothers too.

‘The sisterhood’ doesn’t require me to lie about being people amazing and competent when they aren’t.
Nor does it require me to gaslight myself about how organised or otherwise my own mother was

It’s plain fact that many people are plain useless at adult life.
It’s also plain fact that a lot of those useless people I’ve encountered are SAHM

All I’m suggesting is that I’m not sure being a SAHM is what has caused them to be useless.
I think they are predisposed to uselessness, and that’s why they grabbed the opportunity to be SAHM, because it’s easier to disguise your uselessness when you only have minimal responsibility and routine
The same useless people get found out when they are in jobs

And the sisterhood doesn't prevent you from being insulting to sahms and attributing a load of lazy stereotypes to them either.

And there is no "plain fact" about it. It is simply your opinion. I know many sahms who are highly intelligent, dynamic and competent. One of them ran an award winning PR company before having dc. Another designed a patent that allowed her to stay at home for 12 years.

And I don't make a habit of labelling people as "useless" either because everyone has different strengths and competencies. If that's the perspective that woh gives you, I would rather stay at home thanks.

Ive been both, what I have discovered is that it doesn't matter what you do, you will always be judged and I'm sorry to say I find women much worse for judging you. Strangely though you won't find MEN examined under quite the same microscope. In the end I did what I wanted and if people didn't like it they could s*d right off! People pleasing gets much less important as you age, believe me. Do what is right for you and your family, give no thought to what other people think.

It's interesting to me reading through this.

The WOHMs who disapprove of SAHMs make comments about laziness, being uninteresting, raising more dependent children and lack of financial independence.

The SAHMs who disapprove of WOHMs make comments about neglecting/not loving their children, damaging children's psyche/attachments forever and being self serving.

It's clear that there is some judgement, from some people on both sides. As a WOHM it feels that the judgement against WOHM is somewhat more offensive, I'd much rather be accused of being lazy and boring than of neglecting my child and causing them a lifetime of feeling unloved because I need to pay the mortgage and want to buy them swimming lessons too.

@camaieux

You’re reading comprehension skills aren’t one of your strongest ones by the looks of it

My post was in response to another poster suggesting that being a SAHM is what lowers productivity to be the sort of person who can only do one thing a day

I merely suggested that there was probably more correlation than causation.
Seems like that was lost on you in your eagerness to be professionally offended.

I know many sahms who are highly intelligent, dynamic and competent.

Me too. But I know many who are none of those things. And in most of their cases, they were none of those things when they worked either. Which is why they were so eager and happy to jack in work in favour of a life that plays to their strength of nothing more taxing than a school run and supermarket shop.

[quote GappyValley]@camaieux

You’re reading comprehension skills aren’t one of your strongest ones by the looks of it

My post was in response to another poster suggesting that being a SAHM is what lowers productivity to be the sort of person who can only do one thing a day

I merely suggested that there was probably more correlation than causation.
Seems like that was lost on you in your eagerness to be professionally offended.

I know many sahms who are highly intelligent, dynamic and competent.

Me too. But I know many who are none of those things. And in most of their cases, they were none of those things when they worked either. Which is why they were so eager and happy to jack in work in favour of a life that plays to their strength of nothing more taxing than a school run and supermarket shop.[/quote]
Oh dear. My reading skills are fine thanks.

And I am allowed to respond to any posts I like on a thread on a public website thanks, because, er, that's how Mumsnet works.

I know many sahms who are highly intelligent, dynamic and competent.

Me too. But I know many who are none of those things. And in most of their cases, they were none of those things when they worked either. Which is why they were so eager and happy to jack in work in favour of a life that plays to their strength of nothing more taxing than a school run and supermarket shop.

This makes me laugh tbh. If you are going to go around labelking people as useless (which I try not to do) I am sure you would find as many of them in the office as you would at home.

I know many sahms who are highly intelligent, dynamic and competent. One of them ran an award winning PR company before having dc. Another designed a patent that allowed her to stay at home for 12 years

I’m now wondering if we know some of the same people, @camaieux! In my experience (admittedly, it’s a bubble, but then we all live in a bubble to some extent), the mums who stay at home are the ones who had high flying professional jobs....and met and married someone, usually older, who had an even more high flying job. So “sharing the financial burden” is only possible if you have a nanny (and usually a nanny to cover the nanny); they aren’t jobs where you can do 3 days each, or not be in on a Friday. As a result, quite a few couples in that position decide it’s a nicer life if only one of them works.

You never know Crosstrainer its a small world!

There is definitely the SAHM stereotype of a woman who lists their occupation as 'Full time mummie to Jaxton and Daisii-Mae' on Facebook.

I imagine they're big fans of Stacey Solomon, Mrs Hinch and B&M.

It's clear that there is some judgement, from some people on both sides. As a WOHM it feels that the judgement against WOHM is somewhat more offensive, I'd much rather be accused of being lazy and boring than of neglecting my child and causing them a lifetime of feeling unloved because I need to pay the mortgage and want to buy them swimming lessons too.

Let’s be honest though, no one says that in the genuine belief that they love their children more than working mothers do. Anyone who comes out with something like that is just speaking to their own inadequacies. If it makes them feel better to pretend to think that they love their kids more, the only response is fleeting pity and then move on with your day.

minimal responsibility

Raising a child is not minimal.

Jesus Christ the utter idiots on this thread are numberless

@TeachesOfPeaches

There is definitely the SAHM stereotype of a woman who lists their occupation as 'Full time mummie to Jaxton and Daisii-Mae' on Facebook.

I imagine they're big fans of Stacey Solomon, Mrs Hinch and B&M.

I couldn't be further from that!

Honestly this thread is making me feel more judged than I've ever felt.

I’m a single parent, carer to severely autistic dd and am off work sick (I was only working part time), I’m considering not going back to work but I feel people judge me. My kids are teens so most parents with kids that age have returned to work, my dd needs a lot of care and I can’t get free child care during the school holidays so working full time is impossible but not many people see this and even some of my family members think I’m lazy and living off benefits. If my situation allowed me to work full time I would love to work.

Raising a child is not minimal.

Jesus Christ the utter idiots on this thread are numberless

So what is a SAHP of a school aged child doing to to raise their child that a parent who, say, works term time only and during school hours, is not?

One thing I would like to challenge is the idea I hear a lot from SAHMS on MN - that there aren't jobs that women can do once they have children and therefore they must revert to being SAHM. There are many jobs out there that are flexible, allowing you to leave early or arrive late, and allowing some WFH and other types of flexibility. IME more employers are becoming more flexible/accommodating.

Admittedly there aren't necessarily high paying jobs that start at 9.30 and end at 2.30 so you have to be realistic and accept that your child would be in aftercare, which most children seem to love.

I do get very tired of hearing women say 'there's no jobs out there for moms' as zillions of single parents find a way to make it work. I've been a single parent working FT for 7 years, on a relatively high salary, and manage to do the school drop off and pick up every day because I have to. It really is possible. The question is whether you WANT to work like that or not.

I would prefer women were honest and just admit that they'd just prefer not to live that life than pretend that it's impossible to have a FT job while juggling a family, which is insulting to the many single moms an other moms who are doing it.

There is definitely the SAHM stereotype of a woman who lists their occupation as 'Full time mummie to Jaxton and Daisii-Mae' on Facebook.
I imagine they're big fans of Stacey Solomon, Mrs Hinch and B&M.
That may be true of some SAHM, but it's far from everyone.

I suspect you know that, but with some of my SAHP friends there's people who are SAHM because of religious reasons, some because they decided short term the childcare costs were prohibitive, some because they didn't really like their job and would rather be a SAHM, some who volunteer extensively with local family groups, some who have children with medical and additional needs, some who have chosen to have a career break and retrain, some who are going to go back to work but want flexible hours and are fortunate to be able to pursue that.

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

Raising a child is not minimal.

Jesus Christ the utter idiots on this thread are numberless

So what is a SAHP of a school aged child doing to to raise their child that a parent who, say, works term time only and during school hours, is not?

SAHP are doing everything that WMs pay their childcare providers for. Well engaged ones are anyway. I didn't become a SAHM to sit my children in front of the telly all day (although nothing wrong with that occasionally!) whilst I sit with my feet up or maintain a perfect showhome.

We read, we draw, we bake, we play, we make a mess and tidy it again, we run around the garden, we go to the park, we do crafts. In non COVID times we go out to lots of interesting places. We swim when it's quiet. We go to the supermarket but I don't just shove them round in the trolley, they help me shop and learn about food and where things come from/how we cook things. I fit in housework around them. Sometimes I take them out for a coffee (milk for them) and a treat - they're learning then how to behave sitting nicely at a table in public, and waiting patiently for things to arrive etc.

My five year old could manage very basic reading, write her name and those of family members and do basic adding up and all of the practical basics like putting on and taking off shoes, getting changed unassisted, opening a yoghurt, holding a pen correctly when she started school at age 4. Independence skills. I'm not saying a child who has been in nursery couldn't do those things, many many can, but mine could because I taught them to do these things myself. I have worked in a school and (SEN aside) it is shocking how many children still cannot manage to remove clothes/pull down and put them back/pull up on to use the toilet at age 4/5 even though they are toilet trained or put on their own shoes without lots of help.

Mine also attended a preschool for two days a week from age 3, so she had the social aspect with other children too. My youngest will do the same at 3.

Let me repeat the question, because that all sounds lovely but wasn’t really related to what I asked which was: So what is a SAHP of a school aged child doing to to raise their child that a parent who, say, works term time only and during school hours, is not?

@Blyatiful good god- the comment about the Filipinas! How awful all round!

I would lose it if someone said this to me. I hope you responded with ‘why did you go to university if you weren’t going to work?’

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

Let me repeat the question, because that all sounds lovely but wasn’t really related to what I asked which was: So what is a SAHP of a school aged child doing to to raise their child that a parent who, say, works term time only and during school hours, is not?

Giving them all of (or most of) their time. There is no one activity that a sahm can do that a wm can't. But what they give in addition is time.

I think it’s fine for a woman to choose to be a SAHM, but wondering- do SAHMs get riled up about entrenched gender imbalances, the pay gap, very few female CEOs etc etc?

If I knew one who did, I think it would bother me.

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

Raising a child is not minimal.

Jesus Christ the utter idiots on this thread are numberless

So what is a SAHP of a school aged child doing to to raise their child that a parent who, say, works term time only and during school hours, is not?

Probably nowt but how many SAHP only work school hours? Probably less than 5%