How is this not murder?(upsetting)

[OhToBeASeahorse]

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

Understanding it is the only hope we have of trying to make sure it doesnt happen more often...

Causingchaos2 unless you have experience of abuse yourself you have no idea of what you are talking about. Calling someone “a more pious sufferer of abuse” is shockingly ignorant.

@OhToBeASeahorse

I don't think anyone is saying it was inevitable but it would certainly make it more likely and it is shocking that it was allowed to happen.

Whether or not this was due to cuts, a failure to perform a job properly, or a mixture of both in would say is a discussion. But given the history to be left alone for that length of time is shocking. And if the poor baby died earlier than they weren't being checked on either

What is odd is that one assumes she had demonstrated good judgement before this happened.

But people are conflating interventions that could potentially have prevented the consequences of this woman's behaviour, with the responsibility as an individual for her own child and her own actions in the first place. The only cause of this was her own behaviour. Yes it's tragic that in other circumstances someone may have intervened and saved her poor daughter before it was too late. But that does not diminish that fact that she chose to do this to her child in the first place.

@thedancingbear

I find it incomprehensible that anybody sane would think it possible to understand why someone could starve their own child to death - as if there is any explanation for that behaviour that would ever make it less monstrous.

Yes, your lack of comprehension is the problem.

Silly me. I thought the problem was a woman killing her child.

@Stratfordplace

Causingchaos2 unless you have experience of abuse yourself you have no idea of what you are talking about. Calling someone “a more pious sufferer of abuse” is shockingly ignorant.

Thank you. I agree.

I agree - but this wont be the only case of its ilk. If we can understand what happened here we might be able to stop another one

Devastating but that is manslaughter. That poor poor baby.

To the person who said kids shouldn't have kids, I had my dd when I was 16 and lived alone with her. I never left her alone at all until she was well past old enough. She was happy, healthy and loved with all needs met at all times. Even when I had PND etc

this isn't a young/teen mother issue, it's a disgusting shitty person issue

Plenty of older mothers have also been shitty disgusting people and damaged or killed their children

@CausingChaos2

It’s what you were insinuating though isn’t it MagentaZebras

You aren’t a more pious survivor of abuse just because you’ve managed to make a good life for yourself. Traumatic responses are hugely variable.

I actually tend to agree with @CausingChaos2 that someone's upbringing is never going to be only factor in their behaviour.

But this is an unnecessarily cruel and nasty post, aimed at a survivor of abuse.

Cam77

"This government has spent a decade cutting all kinds of child services to the bone. Sure Start, youth services, and no funding for voluntary organizations. Provision of children’s homes have been handed over to the private sector to save money and they’re doing a worse job. Constant cuts mean a worse general society and provision for those most in need. Nobody who cares about vulnerable people should vote Conservative."

Agree with every word. Until you try to access service many people have no idea what the cuts have reduced services to.

The article linked say that the baby was not under a child protection plan or assigned to a social worker.

Truly awful

@lubeybooby

To the person who said kids shouldn't have kids, I had my dd when I was 16 and lived alone with her. I never left her alone at all until she was well past old enough. She was happy, healthy and loved with all needs met at all times. Even when I had PND etc

this isn't a young/teen mother issue, it's a disgusting shitty person issue

Plenty of older mothers have also been shitty disgusting people and damaged or killed their children

Yes it’s definitely not just an age thing it’s a unwillingness to give up your old life thing, whilst this may be more common in those who are young as they haven’t had enough time to be free and have fun it’s certainly not exclusive to them. Going out for tapas on holiday and leaving toddlers alone anyone??

@thedancingbear my entire point was that someone's upbringing isn't a cause for them to be abusive or non-abusive, so we agree on that.

Thank you for calling out the spiteful and ignorant post.

Leaving a toddler alone in a house for any length of time is dangerous and neglectful, but there must be a lot more information before assuming she intentionally left the child for 6 days to starve to death.
What if the mother did not leave willingly? Or know how long they would be away? (of course she shouldnt have left the baby at all but possibly a difference in thinking you might be gone for an hour or 2 vs 6 days) or tried to get home and were not able to, or were prevented from doing so?

@fizbosshoes

Leaving a toddler alone in a house for any length of time is dangerous and neglectful, but there must be a lot more information before assuming she intentionally left the child for 6 days to starve to death. What if the mother did not leave willingly? Or know how long they would be away? (of course she shouldnt have left the baby at all but possibly a difference in thinking you might be gone for an hour or 2 vs 6 days) or tried to get home and were not able to, or were prevented from doing so?

Assuming the limited information in the article is accurate (big assumption I'll grant you) she was seen leaving alone on CCTV so it was a choice. If she was being threatened she could have called police. If once she had left she couldn't get home again she could have called police or social services to prevent her child starving to death, rather than posting photos of herself on social media.

@Fembot123 that comparison is really quite poor. This young lady clearly hasnt had an 'old life' to hang onto, she was pregnant at 15.

And the starvation of a toddler is nothing like a lapse of judgement.

Thats a very insensitive comparison to both parties

What if the mother did not leave willingly? Or know how long they would be away? (of course she shouldnt have left the baby at all but possibly a difference in thinking you might be gone for an hour or 2 vs 6 days) or tried to get home and were not able to, or were prevented from doing so?

Surely it would have been mentioned in court if she had been held captive?

What if the mother did not leave willingly? Or know how long they would be away? (of course she shouldnt have left the baby at all but possibly a difference in thinking you might be gone for an hour or 2 vs 6 days) or tried to get home and were not able to, or were prevented from doing so?

I think as she was seen going to parties it’s quite clear she wasn’t kidnapped.

It's sad but the whole family seem strange, there was videos going around of her older sister, throwing water all over her on a London tube carriage.
She was calling her vile names because the girl in question was sleeping with older men and making out she was 18 and she was 14/15 then in the videos.
The family say she was missing yet was still in videos and photos with her. Bizarre all round.
Even her friends knew she'd left that baby alone because she was told to go home numerous times and did not, she'd asked for a babysitter and was turned down so people knew that poor baby was alone.

There is definitely a lot more to come out in this case.

Both girls were let down. The baby especially so. By a lot of people.

[quote OhToBeASeahorse]@Fembot123 that comparison is really quite poor. This young lady clearly hasnt had an 'old life' to hang onto, she was pregnant at 15.

And the starvation of a toddler is nothing like a lapse of judgement.

Thats a very insensitive comparison to both parties[/quote]
You have misinterpreted what I’ve said entirely, and of course a 15 year old has an old life to miss! Freedom, partying, friends. I didn’t say the two cases were directly the same but still wanting freedom isn’t exclusive to the young in answer to lubeyboobys comment. It’s not insensitive you’ve just read it incorrectly.

If anything having a traumatic childhood makes you even more determined to ensure your own children never suffer. Unless you are a monster.

Except a traumatic childhood can leave you without the skills to care for a child, without the resilience or distress tolerance to care consistently, without the personal resources to pull yourself up again, it can utterly undermine your capacity to parent. Mental health support for trauma is appalling, there’s too little understanding about the impact of trauma on all areas of human functioning - that some people manage to move forward is a bloody miracle given the dearth of practical and emotional supports for people moving into adulthood and the situation worsens when teenagers move into adult services.

What happened to this child was an absolute tragedy, but I think there’s much wider story to be told.

@stressbandit

It's sad but the whole family seem strange, there was videos going around of her older sister, throwing water all over her on a London tube carriage. She was calling her vile names because the girl in question was sleeping with older men and making out she was 18 and she was 14/15 then in the videos. The family say she was missing yet was still in videos and photos with her. Bizarre all round. Even her friends knew she'd left that baby alone because she was told to go home numerous times and did not, she'd asked for a babysitter and was turned down so people knew that poor baby was alone.

Other people knew the child was alone for days and did nothing about it other than suggest she went home? Fucking hell. Where did you get that information?

@Jellycatspyjamas

If anything having a traumatic childhood makes you even more determined to ensure your own children never suffer. Unless you are a monster.

Except a traumatic childhood can leave you without the skills to care for a child, without the resilience or distress tolerance to care consistently, without the personal resources to pull yourself up again, it can utterly undermine your capacity to parent. Mental health support for trauma is appalling, there’s too little understanding about the impact of trauma on all areas of human functioning - that some people manage to move forward is a bloody miracle given the dearth of practical and emotional supports for people moving into adulthood and the situation worsens when teenagers move into adult services.

What happened to this child was an absolute tragedy, but I think there’s much wider story to be told.

Brilliant post.

Assuming the limited information in the article is accurate (big assumption I'll grant you) she was seen leaving alone on CCTV so it was a choice. If she was being threatened she could have called police. If once she had left she couldn't get home again she could have called police or social services to prevent her child starving to death, rather than posting photos of herself on social media.

And you are assuming a lot of things there too. Leaving alone does not make something a choice. Calling the police may be an ability, but it doesn't mean she could do it. And you have no idea who posted photos on social media or when they were taken. These are assumptions of nice people whose lives are not like those of some others. Addictions, trafficking and a whole series of other possible things that nobody here, I hope, has ever experienced can lead people to make bad choices or to not comprehend the choices they make. Logic is not the only driver of people.

We don't know what this girls life has been like. That may not excuse her, but it may explain her. It is quite possible to hate the crime but not the person - although apparently not for some people here, who appear to think that what she did was awful but what awful things they'd like to happen to her is actually civilised or humane. And they think they are better than her? They are worse - because they are sitting at their keyboards as "upstanding members of society" when the things they are advocating make them scum of the worst order.