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Original poster

How is this not murder?(upsetting)

601 replies

OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 12:16

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

OP posts:
FortunesFave · 26/03/2021 15:37

@felulageller

There was a Facebook post by Sussex police in 2016 when she went missing from Brighton.

Then again missing from London in 2017.

The YouTube post by her sister said she was running away often and they didn't know the baby's cause of death at the point she was charged.

I've visited these supported accommodation places. They are very variable! Staffed can mean 24/7 on site (but usually a sleeping shift at night) or just a staff member popping into the office every few days.

Staff don't routinely go into the self contained flats. It is odd that none of the other residents heard the baby.

I don't even know how the local authority can justify having a child on a child protection plan but not having an assigned worker??

Their serious case review should be interesting. It will give recommendations and we need to push government and local authorities to follow these.

What YouTube post?
CausingChaos2 · 26/03/2021 15:38

This is unbearably tragic. Both what has happened to the baby, and the mother’s turbulent childhood herself. Google shows she has been missing before, on one occasion for at least a month aged 15. How many people posting on this thread can imagine themselves running away from home for so long at such a young age? It is dreadful that the baby has died and the speculation about the mother being off partying is unsavoury to say the least.

MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 15:39

Lots of people have really awful childhoods but wouldn't leave their baby alone for a week to die of hunger and thirst. I find the comments making excuses for the mother deeply disturbing. Try to imagine the trauma and pain that poor baby went through. All of our sympathy should be reserved for her.

FortunesFave · 26/03/2021 15:41

@MagentaZebras

Lots of people have really awful childhoods but wouldn't leave their baby alone for a week to die of hunger and thirst. I find the comments making excuses for the mother deeply disturbing. Try to imagine the trauma and pain that poor baby went through. All of our sympathy should be reserved for her.
Lots of people have lovely lives and commit terrible crimes. People do things...terrible things...whether they've had a good life or a bad one. Human nature tries to work that out and make sense of it.

Stop being judgmental.

ZoeCM · 26/03/2021 15:42

So, to clarify: if a man locked his partner in a cupboard, making 100% percent sure she couldn't escape, and then left her for weeks to starve to death... that would be manslaughter, not murder? In the eyes of the law, there would be no intent to kill, even though he knew she would starve? Or would the act of locking her in the cupboard make a difference legally (even though a baby would be just as unable to get food as an adult who was locked up)?

MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 15:42

@CausingChaos2

This is unbearably tragic. Both what has happened to the baby, and the mother’s turbulent childhood herself. Google shows she has been missing before, on one occasion for at least a month aged 15. How many people posting on this thread can imagine themselves running away from home for so long at such a young age? It is dreadful that the baby has died and the speculation about the mother being off partying is unsavoury to say the least.
I left as a 16 year old after years of abuse and never went back. No support from social services or anybody else. I now have a degree and a professional job and two children that I would never leave alone even for an hour let alone a week. Whatever she'd been through, she chose to do this to her child. If anything having a traumatic childhood makes you even more determined to ensure your own children never suffer. Unless you are a monster.
MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 15:43

@FortunesFave precisely: that's why all of that is irrelevant. She is an adult and is entirely responsible for her actions. Damn right I judge someone who starves their own baby to death.

thedancingbear · 26/03/2021 15:44

@ZoeCM

So, to clarify: if a man locked his partner in a cupboard, making 100% percent sure she couldn't escape, and then left her for weeks to starve to death... that would be manslaughter, not murder? In the eyes of the law, there would be no intent to kill, even though he knew she would starve? Or would the act of locking her in the cupboard make a difference legally (even though a baby would be just as unable to get food as an adult who was locked up)?
Eh? But that's not what happened. I mean there are some very general similarities, but there are also big differences too...
MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 15:45

@ZoeCM

So, to clarify: if a man locked his partner in a cupboard, making 100% percent sure she couldn't escape, and then left her for weeks to starve to death... that would be manslaughter, not murder? In the eyes of the law, there would be no intent to kill, even though he knew she would starve? Or would the act of locking her in the cupboard make a difference legally (even though a baby would be just as unable to get food as an adult who was locked up)?
Exactly. And I doubt anybody would be saying "oh poor guy, he must have had a difficult childhood". Instead I suspect people would (rightly) be saying "lock the psychopath up and throw away the key".
CausingChaos2 · 26/03/2021 15:46

That’s great for you. Not everyone reacts to trauma in the same way.

CausingChaos2 · 26/03/2021 15:46

That was to MagentaZebras

Stratfordplace · 26/03/2021 15:48

MagentaZebras I agree, my late FIL had and appallingly abusive father, he and his siblings were lovely men and doting, devoted fathers.

I’m sick to death of the narrative that if you have been abused you must be an abuser.

SweatyPie · 26/03/2021 15:48

[quote MagentaZebras]@FortunesFave precisely: that's why all of that is irrelevant. She is an adult and is entirely responsible for her actions. Damn right I judge someone who starves their own baby to death. [/quote]

Exactly. If you dig deep enough you can find excuses for anything. Most serial killers had bad childhoods, same with other abusers. Guess that's ok then.

MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 15:48

@CausingChaos2

That’s great for you. Not everyone reacts to trauma in the same way.
I didn't say they did.
MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 15:50

@Stratfordplace

MagentaZebras I agree, my late FIL had and appallingly abusive father, he and his siblings were lovely men and doting, devoted fathers.

I’m sick to death of the narrative that if you have been abused you must be an abuser.

Yes. It's massively offensive and very damaging in itself and I am sick of the apologists who mostly have never been through that kind of trauma defending people who do these monstrous things as if it was an inevitability.
wishes1111 · 26/03/2021 15:51

My heart breaks for that beautiful little girl.

As a woman who's had multiple miscarriages and no living children, these stories just dig that hole in my heart a little more.

thedancingbear · 26/03/2021 15:52

Yes. It's massively offensive and very damaging in itself and I am sick of the apologists who mostly have never been through that kind of trauma defending people who do these monstrous things as if it was an inevitability.

And I'm sick and tired of people who deliberately conflate trying to understand why people do things - so we can stop it happening again - with defending or excusing those people.

It's an easy out to condemn every abuser and murder as a 'monster'. Nothing will change unless we try to do better.

Original poster
OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 15:53

I don't think anyone is saying it was inevitable but it would certainly make it more likely and it is shocking that it was allowed to happen.

Whether or not this was due to cuts, a failure to perform a job properly, or a mixture of both in would say is a discussion. But given the history to be left alone for that length of time is shocking. And if the poor baby died earlier than they weren't being checked on either

What is odd is that one assumes she had demonstrated good judgement before this happened.

OP posts:
LoisWilkersonslastnerve · 26/03/2021 15:55

I'm guessing she went off thinking someone else would hear the baby and look after her, with it being supported accommodation. Absolutely awful way to die, poor babySad

CausingChaos2 · 26/03/2021 15:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 15:56

@thedancingbear

Yes. It's massively offensive and very damaging in itself and I am sick of the apologists who mostly have never been through that kind of trauma defending people who do these monstrous things as if it was an inevitability.

And I'm sick and tired of people who deliberately conflate trying to understand why people do things - so we can stop it happening again - with defending or excusing those people.

It's an easy out to condemn every abuser and murder as a 'monster'. Nothing will change unless we try to do better.

I find it incomprehensible that anybody sane would think it possible to understand why someone could starve their own child to death - as if there is any explanation for that behaviour that would ever make it less monstrous.
MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 15:57

@CausingChaos2

It’s what you were insinuating though isn’t it MagentaZebras

You aren’t a more pious survivor of abuse just because you’ve managed to make a good life for yourself. Traumatic responses are hugely variable.

You are calling me "pious" because I'm disgusted by the apologists for a child killer. Ok then.
ZoeCM · 26/03/2021 15:57

What are the big differences, @thedancingbear?

user1471538283 · 26/03/2021 15:58

There is no way that young woman had sufficient resources to party for six days and buy those clothes. She was either trafficked or its prostitution.

She would have known the baby wouldn't survive if the baby was even alive when she left.

There is more to this.

thedancingbear · 26/03/2021 15:59

I find it incomprehensible that anybody sane would think it possible to understand why someone could starve their own child to death - as if there is any explanation for that behaviour that would ever make it less monstrous.

Yes, your lack of comprehension is the problem.