How is this not murder?(upsetting)

[OhToBeASeahorse]

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

[quote OhToBeASeahorse]@Fembot123 that comparison is really quite poor. This young lady clearly hasnt had an 'old life' to hang onto, she was pregnant at 15.

And the starvation of a toddler is nothing like a lapse of judgement.

Thats a very insensitive comparison to both parties[/quote]
Lots of kids will already have spent years partying before turning fifteen, though. A girl who gets pregnant at that age is definitely losing her old life.

If you're referring to the McCanns making a lapse of judgement - I think it was more serious than that. They left the kids alone repeatedly, it wasn't a brief moment of stupidity. There was a definite pattern of neglect.

I agree with the poster who said some parents, regardless of age, just want to carry on living as though they're childless, and sometimes the consequences are tragic.

@Jellycatspyjamas

If anything having a traumatic childhood makes you even more determined to ensure your own children never suffer. Unless you are a monster.

Except a traumatic childhood can leave you without the skills to care for a child, without the resilience or distress tolerance to care consistently, without the personal resources to pull yourself up again, it can utterly undermine your capacity to parent. Mental health support for trauma is appalling, there’s too little understanding about the impact of trauma on all areas of human functioning - that some people manage to move forward is a bloody miracle given the dearth of practical and emotional supports for people moving into adulthood and the situation worsens when teenagers move into adult services.

What happened to this child was an absolute tragedy, but I think there’s much wider story to be told.

I'm well aware of how poor the mental health support is.

Nobody forced this woman to have a baby. If she was traumatised and incapable of caring for a child she could have had an abortion.

There is no excuse for choosing to bring a child into the world then abandoning them to starve to death/ die of thirst, sitting in a nappy they've been wearing for six days. Really think about what that must have been like for that baby. The terror and the pain and not understanding why mummy never came back while she died alone.

@MagentaZebras A lot of people know it, it was posted all over Instagram on one them gossip pages and people she'd been to the party's with had commented that they told her to go home, obviously you can imagine the people that read that, then kicked off and said if you knew yourself she was out and the baby was at home alone, why didn't you phone the police, they just blocked them from replying. It's all very weird and strange.
Even the videos that was going round it was the older sister who uploaded them to the Instagram pages calling her sister names saying she's been like this for a long time.

Nobody forced this woman to have a baby.

You sure about that? She was 15.

@thedancingbear

Nobody forced this woman to have a baby.

You sure about that? She was 15.

Yep. Pretty sure as a 15 year old she would have been offered that option.

@thatwentbadly

You said that for it to be murder an intention to kill is necessary. That is wrong.

[quote stressbandit]@MagentaZebras A lot of people know it, it was posted all over Instagram on one them gossip pages and people she'd been to the party's with had commented that they told her to go home, obviously you can imagine the people that read that, then kicked off and said if you knew yourself she was out and the baby was at home alone, why didn't you phone the police, they just blocked them from replying. It's all very weird and strange.
Even the videos that was going round it was the older sister who uploaded them to the Instagram pages calling her sister names saying she's been like this for a long time. [/quote]
That's absolutely awful. It's even more tragic given that people knew and didn't do anything to save the poor girl.

@Moondust001

Assuming the limited information in the article is accurate (big assumption I'll grant you) she was seen leaving alone on CCTV so it was a choice. If she was being threatened she could have called police. If once she had left she couldn't get home again she could have called police or social services to prevent her child starving to death, rather than posting photos of herself on social media.

And you are assuming a lot of things there too. Leaving alone does not make something a choice. Calling the police may be an ability, but it doesn't mean she could do it. And you have no idea who posted photos on social media or when they were taken. These are assumptions of nice people whose lives are not like those of some others. Addictions, trafficking and a whole series of other possible things that nobody here, I hope, has ever experienced can lead people to make bad choices or to not comprehend the choices they make. Logic is not the only driver of people.

We don't know what this girls life has been like. That may not excuse her, but it may explain her. It is quite possible to hate the crime but not the person - although apparently not for some people here, who appear to think that what she did was awful but what awful things they'd like to happen to her is actually civilised or humane. And they think they are better than her? They are worse - because they are sitting at their keyboards as "upstanding members of society" when the things they are advocating make them scum of the worst order.

Really? So you're in your apartment on your own with your child and you get up and walk out. This is not a choice? She didn't control her own body movements?

She can't use a telephone? But can travel to parties and pose for photos/ comment on social media but it's beyond her capability to call 999?

This just gets more and more ridiculous.

@Stratfordplace

Causingchaos2 unless you have experience of abuse yourself you have no idea of what you are talking about. Calling someone “a more pious sufferer of abuse” is shockingly ignorant.

Yes I am a survivor of abuse. Like the poster I was talking to, I have made a good life for myself. I have a degree and live a comfortable life. I don’t for a second see that as justification to call the woman concerned a monster or to sneer at her. She has clearly lived a depraved and troubled life beginning in childhood.

I’m not going to speculate further on why she left her daughter, and it is a heartbreaking situation all round.

Yep. Pretty sure as a 15 year old she would have been offered that option.

My point was that she was very possibly raped. Yes, an abortion would in principle be available, but (i) she may not have known how to access that and (ii) I refuse to judge a coerced woman for choosing not to abort.

Calling the police may be an ability, but it doesn't mean she could do it

*
In what conceivable scenario can she not phone 999? They have CCTV off her leaking. She chose to leave her baby unattended for any length of time, which is completely inappropriate.

The CCTV shows her walking back in nearly a week later.

I don't get how people are making excuses. She could have even asked someone else to call 999 with a phone for some reason.

@MagentaZebras I know it's really difficult to even understand how the people at her hostel place thing didn't hear the baby crying? I mean surely to god someone would of heard her cry and thought that's been going on a whilst??

@CausingChaos2 I am sorry that you have also had to live through abuse.

That said I still find your comments offensive. I find it hard to believe someone who has experienced abuse themselves would accuse somebody speaking about their own experience of it "pious" or accuse them of "sneering".

@thedancingbear

Yep. Pretty sure as a 15 year old she would have been offered that option.

My point was that she was very possibly raped. Yes, an abortion would in principle be available, but (i) she may not have known how to access that and (ii) I refuse to judge a coerced woman for choosing not to abort.

Sigh.

Ok then. So if she was coerced into having the baby, she could have had her adopted or given her up a any point or even on that last night could have taken the baby to a hospital or police station before she went partying for the best part of a week, rather than leaving her to starve to death.

These increasingly implausible and unlikely excuses for her leaving her child to die a painful death alone are getting a bit absurd.

[quote stressbandit]@MagentaZebras I know it's really difficult to even understand how the people at her hostel place thing didn't hear the baby crying? I mean surely to god someone would of heard her cry and thought that's been going on a whilst?? [/quote]
Yes. I don't understand that at all. Especially when they'd seen her go and not return so hearing a child in the apartment they would have known she was alone.

Yep. Pretty sure as a 15 year old she would have been offered that option.

So you know her do you?

You know when she found out she was pregnant? How far gone she was? What services she was offered? Her ability to access services? That no-one else had any influence over her?

Unless you do then you are simply making assumptions.

Nobody forced this woman to have a baby. If she was traumatised and incapable of caring for a child she could have had an abortion.

You have no idea what her circumstances were as a 15 year old, how much free choice she would have around her pregnancy, how much support she might have been offered to help her (or not). None of us do. What I do know is that 15 year old girls with a traumatic background are vulnerable to all kinds of abuse, exploitation and manipulation. She may have wanted to keep her baby, and at the time was able to care for some extent, it’s not unusual for new mums to manage ok with the baby stage and really not cope once the child is more mobile.

She was in a mum and baby unit, so clearly identified as in need of support with her parenting. I suspect there’s much to come out about this story, the SCR will make for very interesting reading indeed.

Really think about what that must have been like for that baby. The terror and the pain and not understanding why mummy never came back while she died alone.

I don’t need a lesson in empathy for abused children, thanks, unlike the arm chair warriors I see enough in my job, but I also need to work with the mums who are usually very flawed, harmed individuals in their own right. Nothing excuses what happened here but I suspect there will be much that explains it.

Maybe we are best to leave it at that then MagentaZebras as I find it hard to believe that someone who has experienced abuse can’t empathise with this woman. I’m certainly aware that my life could have panned out very differently.

As for your comments about calling the police. I’m gobsmacked. Many horrible things were done to me before I turned 18 and the police knew of just one.

@JustLyra

Yep. Pretty sure as a 15 year old she would have been offered that option.

So you know her do you?

You know when she found out she was pregnant? How far gone she was? What services she was offered? Her ability to access services? That no-one else had any influence over her?

Unless you do then you are simply making assumptions.

Nope. But if she couldn't/ didn't want to have an abortion she could have given the baby up for adoption or at least left her at a hospital or police station where, you know, they'd make sure she didn't die. The endless "but what if...?" excuses are beyond ridiculous.

There is a reason the charge is manslaughter and not murder.
That says it wasn’t a deliberate, pre-planned decision to let her child die.

Clearly there are major factors in the background of this case.

The need for some people to ignore that and just label her as evil doesn’t help open the conversation about the decimation of services designed to help and protect children like her and her poor baby.

There’s no way it’s as simple as “she’s evil”, no matter how much people would like it to be so.

@CausingChaos2

Maybe we are best to leave it at that then MagentaZebras as I find it hard to believe that someone who has experienced abuse can’t empathise with this woman. I’m certainly aware that my life could have panned out very differently.

As for your comments about calling the police. I’m gobsmacked. Many horrible things were done to me before I turned 18 and the police knew of just one.

I wouldn't have called the police about anuse either, a waste of time. I was referring to her option to call the police if (as posters conjectured) for some reason she was prevented from going home for six days, so that they could break into her flat and prevent her child dying. That call, I believe the police would respond to.

I'm sure there's more to this story and this girl's life that we are not being told about.

I'm guessing they're giving the death dates as between December 4th and 12th, because there is probably an independent witness or CCTV that saw the child alive on the 4th.

Also, this might be a cliche but neglected babies don't cry as they know nobody will come for them.

@CausingChaos2

Maybe we are best to leave it at that then MagentaZebras as I find it hard to believe that someone who has experienced abuse can’t empathise with this woman. I’m certainly aware that my life could have panned out very differently.

As for your comments about calling the police. I’m gobsmacked. Many horrible things were done to me before I turned 18 and the police knew of just one.

I’m similar to you @CausingChaos2. I can look at one of my siblings and see that timing and luck had a huge part to play in how I’ve reacted to my childhood with regard to my parenting.

Life could have been very different. Especially if any of the doors that opened to help me had remained firmly closed.

@Jellycatspyjamas

Nobody forced this woman to have a baby. If she was traumatised and incapable of caring for a child she could have had an abortion.

You have no idea what her circumstances were as a 15 year old, how much free choice she would have around her pregnancy, how much support she might have been offered to help her (or not). None of us do. What I do know is that 15 year old girls with a traumatic background are vulnerable to all kinds of abuse, exploitation and manipulation. She may have wanted to keep her baby, and at the time was able to care for some extent, it’s not unusual for new mums to manage ok with the baby stage and really not cope once the child is more mobile.

She was in a mum and baby unit, so clearly identified as in need of support with her parenting. I suspect there’s much to come out about this story, the SCR will make for very interesting reading indeed.

Really think about what that must have been like for that baby. The terror and the pain and not understanding why mummy never came back while she died alone.

I don’t need a lesson in empathy for abused children, thanks, unlike the arm chair warriors I see enough in my job, but I also need to work with the mums who are usually very flawed, harmed individuals in their own right. Nothing excuses what happened here but I suspect there will be much that explains it.

If you are involved in this work professionally I really hope you do not view women like this as "harmless individuals".

Nope. But if she couldn't/ didn't want to have an abortion she could have given the baby up for adoption or at least left her at a hospital or police station where, you know, they'd make sure she didn't die. The endless "but what if...?" excuses are beyond ridiculous.

So she should have left the child somewhere where she could have been helped... like perhaps a staffed mother and baby unit where people saw her leave for example?...

You’re determined to see nothing other than “she’s evil” so I’ll leave you to that.

For me life is never as black and white. Especially when you are talking about a young woman with clearly a troubled background.