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Original poster

How is this not murder?(upsetting)

601 replies

OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 12:16

A mother has appeared in court today charged with the manslaughter of her toddler.

She left her, alone, for 6 days.

How can this not be murder? I don't understand.

OP posts:
SweatyPie · 26/03/2021 16:51

@JustLyra

There is a reason the charge is manslaughter and not murder. That says it wasn’t a deliberate, pre-planned decision to let her child die.

Clearly there are major factors in the background of this case.

The need for some people to ignore that and just label her as evil doesn’t help open the conversation about the decimation of services designed to help and protect children like her and her poor baby.

There’s no way it’s as simple as “she’s evil”, no matter how much people would like it to be so.

Or it means there was a lack of evidence and manslaughter is better than her walking free with zero conviction.

JustLyra · 26/03/2021 16:51

If you are involved in this work professionally I really hope you do not view women like this as "harmless individuals"

@Jellycatspyjamas said “harmed individuals” not harmless

CausingChaos2 · 26/03/2021 16:53

Can’t you see that her being away from home in itself could have been abuse or exploitation? It’s not a case of thinking the police are a waste of time, it’s being able to speak out in the first place. To recognise the situation you are is of itself, abusive. We don’t know what her insight, or lack of, was.

Or she could have been triggered to run away from home which she has a long standing history of doing. We just don’t know. I’m not going to be drawn further into speculation. I’m sure we will sadly hear more details.

Jellycatspyjamas · 26/03/2021 16:53

Where have I said she was a “harmless individual”?

SilverOtter · 26/03/2021 16:53

Oh my god, I feel physically sick. That poor little babySad.

MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 16:54

@JustLyra

Nope. But if she couldn't/ didn't want to have an abortion she could have given the baby up for adoption or at least left her at a hospital or police station where, you know, they'd make sure she didn't die. The endless "but what if...?" excuses are beyond ridiculous.

So she should have left the child somewhere where she could have been helped... like perhaps a staffed mother and baby unit where people saw her leave for example?...

You’re determined to see nothing other than “she’s evil” so I’ll leave you to that.

For me life is never as black and white. Especially when you are talking about a young woman with clearly a troubled background.

It wasn't a mother and baby unit.

I don't think a troubled background gets anywhere close to "explaining" this behaviour, for those who want to "understand it".

I was a child treated with a similar level of contempt. I was lucky that I survived, unlike this poor baby. So no, I have zero sympathy for the mother, only for the innocent baby who was killed in an horrific and painful and terrifying way.

Stratfordplace · 26/03/2021 16:54

So it’s ok to starve a baby because, well, the mother might have had a traumatic time and was young and if you disagree, you are just an armchair warrior.

Right, once again, my thoughts and prayers are with that delightful little baby, who was let down by her mother and all the apologists, including social workers and other so called caring professions. Then again, it’s just another day at the office for them.

Fembot123 · 26/03/2021 16:54

People need to read posts properly if they are going to respond to them.

Fembot123 · 26/03/2021 16:55

@Stratfordplace

So it’s ok to starve a baby because, well, the mother might have had a traumatic time and was young and if you disagree, you are just an armchair warrior.

Right, once again, my thoughts and prayers are with that delightful little baby, who was let down by her mother and all the apologists, including social workers and other so called caring professions. Then again, it’s just another day at the office for them.

That’s a extremely facile summation of what is being said here.
MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 16:55

@JustLyra

If you are involved in this work professionally I really hope you do not view women like this as "harmless individuals"

@Jellycatspyjamas said “harmed individuals” not harmless

Apologies @Jellycatspyjamas, I misread that.
MondeoFan · 26/03/2021 16:55

Awwww I read this. The young girl was only 18 herself. Surely she didn't think the 20 month old would be ok?

MazekeenSmith · 26/03/2021 16:56

@MyGorramShip

So she ran away at 14

Was in a social services ran mother and baby housing unit

Baby was on a CPP, but had no social worker

HOW?!

How was no SW assigned and checking on them regularly in these circumstances?

It says baby was NOT on a child protection plan Presumably there had been no previous threshold for a plan before this tragedy happened
Original poster
OhToBeASeahorse · 26/03/2021 16:57

No one has said that @Stratfordplace. Again understanding something is different to condoning it.
@Fembot123 I apologise. Sleep deprived with a napless baby and I misunderstood you.

OP posts:
IrmaFayLear · 26/03/2021 16:57

That poor child.

I don’t understand the “empathy” for the child’s mother. An attempt to understand what went on, yes, but empathy for her - no. Where were the grandparents? Apparently the grandmother had been living at the accommodation, and the girl’s father was present in court, and she waved at him.

Walking out of that flat, closing the door and not going back is incomprehensible. She could have phoned someone - not necessarily the police. Those talking about coercion - piffle. She walked out alone and returned alone.

Social services may be underfunded, but a) there was no social services involvement and b) it’s not a reasonable excuse for the mother. If I walked out on my dcs and came back a week later, whose fault would it be?

Jellycatspyjamas · 26/03/2021 16:57

So it’s ok to starve a baby because, well, the mother might have had a traumatic time and was young and if you disagree, you are just an armchair warrior.

Where have I, or anyone, said it’s ok?

Fembot123 · 26/03/2021 16:57

@OhToBeASeahorse

No one has said that *@Stratfordplace*. Again understanding something is different to condoning it. *@Fembot123* I apologise. Sleep deprived with a napless baby and I misunderstood you.
No problem.
standingfreddo · 26/03/2021 16:58

@HoppingPavlova

I hope the mother gets the heftiest sentence that can possibly be imposed.

That won’t happen. If you let kids have kids (and how can you not - human rights etc), then you have a duty to support their kids in acknowledgment that their parents in the main cannot. And yes, there will be an odd outlier of a unicorn teenage parent but in general they need intense support to parent. If they don’t get this it’s going to fall down. That’s what happened here. So, ‘the State’ has failed both children and the parents sentence will no doubt reflect this.

Yeah, if only this girl had just waited until she was 18 to have a child she would have been a terrific mother and this never would have happened 🙄
MazekeenSmith · 26/03/2021 16:59

@lastqueenofscotland

How in the hell did a child with a child protection plan not have a social worker assigned. This was obviously an at risk case that could have been prevented.
She DID NOT have a child protection plan
MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 16:59

@Stratfordplace

So it’s ok to starve a baby because, well, the mother might have had a traumatic time and was young and if you disagree, you are just an armchair warrior.

Right, once again, my thoughts and prayers are with that delightful little baby, who was let down by her mother and all the apologists, including social workers and other so called caring professions. Then again, it’s just another day at the office for them.

I agree. For people looking for "explanations", I think some answers at a societal level may be illinated by examining how much of this thread has been dedicated to sympathy for/ defence of the killer, rather than horror at what happened to the poor baby. Sad
JustLyra · 26/03/2021 17:00

I was a child treated with a similar level of contempt. I was lucky that I survived, unlike this poor baby. So no, I have zero sympathy for the mother, only for the innocent baby who was killed in an horrific and painful and terrifying way.

@MagentaZebras I was also treated similarly as a child and was lucky I survived.

I do have sympathy for the mother (and funnily enough it is possible to have sympathy for her whilst having sympathy for the poor baby as well). I was lucky, people banged doors, yelled and fought to get me the help I needed once I was rescued.

Having seen my eldest sibling go in the opposite direction I can see that luck, timing, people on my side and many other factors got me to where I am today.

People will come out of situations with different opinions and I have sympathy for them both because they were both massively let down.

CausingChaos2 · 26/03/2021 17:00

We are all horrified by what happened to the baby for gods sake MagentaZebras !

MazekeenSmith · 26/03/2021 17:01

@Brunt0n

Some ‘child protection plan’

Why the fuck do these people have babies? Just have an abortion, she could have left her at a doctor surgery, hospital or a fire station... but no. She knew what she was doing, she knew the little one would die.

I hope that little darling rests in peace.

She wasn't on a child protection plan
CausingChaos2 · 26/03/2021 17:01

Well said Lyra and so sorry to hear your story.

JustLyra · 26/03/2021 17:01

@IrmaFayLear

That poor child.

I don’t understand the “empathy” for the child’s mother. An attempt to understand what went on, yes, but empathy for her - no. Where were the grandparents? Apparently the grandmother had been living at the accommodation, and the girl’s father was present in court, and she waved at him.

Walking out of that flat, closing the door and not going back is incomprehensible. She could have phoned someone - not necessarily the police. Those talking about coercion - piffle. She walked out alone and returned alone.

Social services may be underfunded, but a) there was no social services involvement and b) it’s not a reasonable excuse for the mother. If I walked out on my dcs and came back a week later, whose fault would it be?

The grandmother didn’t live there. The baby loved there with her mother. The article is just badly worded.

That’s also where the child protection plan, but no social worker comes from. It definitely said that earlier but has changed to not on a CP plan or having a SW.

MagentaZebras · 26/03/2021 17:02

*illuminated