Clergy families

[ClergyFamilyNameChange]

I've name changed for this in case there's some chance someone could identify me from this, although I doubt it.

Another thread has just triggered some shit memories in me this evening, and I wondered if anyone else was in a similar boat or had similar issues? It feels really inappropriate to post on that one though as it's obviously its own issue.

My father was a minister for thirty-five years. He was kind, sympathetic, over-dedicated, optimistic and really believed in a kind gentle god. He eventually wore himself into a total breakdown by trying to be good and kind and loving and supportive.

Despite his hard work, many people still spent forever complaining about this, that, whatever - the committees, the church politics, the quarrels - and would turn up at all hours to rant about their issues. He was used as a verbal punchbag and I still remember the sickening feeling of having to be well behaved and quiet upstairs as loud voices downstairs went on for hours in church meetings in the house. They treated our home like a drop in centre, including sending any drunks or addicts our way. There were countless times he would miss dinners or events or days out because some person absorbed in their own drama would demand he run over to them.

I am not excusing him entirely here. He was overly naive, he put them first and shouldn't, he should have had firmer boundaries. He shouldn't have been a minister really. And maybe it suited him to either be constantly out the house or be constantly working.

But equally, some abusive parishioners used Christianity as a way of insisting he had to be perfect and meek and mild while they lashed all their issues out on him.

I had two questions if you've read this far. Again this is not about that other thread and the issues there.

First, if you're in a church, is it better these days for clergy families - do they protect them from this shit, is there any safeguarding?

And second, did anyone else grow up in a home with issues like these - or was it just me and my family?

It's amazing how sick I feel over it all.

That sounds like a nightmare job to be honest.
I think in your shoes I would try and appreciate all the good that happened instead of focusing on the crap.

I’m married to a minister. They’re overstretched and massively under resourced.

My husband is kind and caring but maintains strong boundaries. Many people push them, but he puts his family first.

They do tell you about the importance of boundaries at theological college but the first time someone walks into your house or garden without knocking because the previous vicar allowed it is quite a shock. In this parish I had the keys changed twice and made it really, really clear that I have a family, the previous vicar didn't and we were no longer using the front room of the Vicarage as a meeting room.

It sounds as if your dad had a really rough time.

No meetings are held at our vicars house.
No one has his (paid for on expenses) mobile phone number so you only have the option of calling the landline or emailing.
Every school holiday is taken as leave.(13 weeks )
His wife and children rarely attend church or events.

I’d say he’s got his family and work life balance well maintained, which also makes it difficult for parishioners to actually get hold of him.

I'm not from or in a clergy family, but I do go to church and am involved in the church community. I find it astonishing how much people who are otherwise kind and generous expect from our vicar and how angry they become if he isn't meek and mild.

I grew up Catholic in a largely Catholic country so CofE clergy with spouses and families were fascinating to me when I started to live in England. But honestly, of the ones I’ve seen close up, it’s a potentially hugely difficult situation. I’m not in favour of clerical celibacy either, but at least there aren’t spouses and children suffering.

@ShirazSavedMySanity

No meetings are held at our vicars house. No one has his (paid for on expenses) mobile phone number so you only have the option of calling the landline or emailing. Every school holiday is taken as leave.(13 weeks ) His wife and children rarely attend church or events.

I’d say he’s got his family and work life balance well maintained, which also makes it difficult for parishioners to actually get hold of him.

This is complete madness!

I think I need to move to Shiraz' parish I only get 24 days holiday, which when you work 6 days a week is only 4 weeks off.

I tend not to hold group church meetings in my house, but on a work day (outside of Covid) then I will meet individual people in my office sometimes.
I had to have the locks changed on my current Vicarage as too many parishioners had keys which seems a safeguarding issue to me.
I have had to train myself to ignore the phone on my day off. Because people feel it is fine to phone at 3 in the morning because you are the vicar and should be willing to listen at any time I don't give out my mobile number.
I also try not to have more than one evening meeting a week, but sometimes there has to be 2. otherwise it doesn't seem fair on the family.

Our vicars have had pretty good boundaries, and I think our parishioners have been pretty well behaved. I mean, strong willed and stroppy, but not rude or aggressive or excessively demanding. The problems we have are more about people getting huffy with each other- more like managing friendship groups than real conflict.

I'm sorry your childhood was blighted in this way. I'd say boundaries are better these days, perhaps because more women are managing families and being priests, and more fathers are present as dads as well as priests. It's more balanced because male priests can't get away with leaving it to their wife, and there are women priests.

It sounds awful but I'm afraid that most clergy I've met have been vile. The Cathedral canon who thinks turn the other cheek doesn't apply to her, the vicar who lied through her teeth about wanting to change things even before she turned up, the vicar who announced that because he'd been to theological college he was therefore more intelligent than his congregation ( many of who were Oxbridge graduates).

So I'm afraid that many clergy do deserve everything they get.

I'm not sure that really addresses OP's post, to be honest London Mummy. I mean yes, vicars can be hard to get on with just like anyone else, but how does that answer OP's concerns about work arguments taking place in the family home at all hours, and the lack of any time off?

First, if you're in a church, is it better these days for clergy families - do they protect them from this shit, is there any safeguarding?

Well, I can't say "it is better", as this seems like an individual issue that you / your family / your Dad had, rather than a universal issue.
It doesn't happen in my Church - meetings are held at Church, unless individuals choose to invite people into their homes.
Yes, there will be safeguarding training, procedures and protocols in all mainstream Church denominations these days, just the same as safeguarding has evolved in every setting.

And second, did anyone else grow up in a home with issues like these - or was it just me and my family?

Well, I obviously can't say no-one did, but it isn't the experience of any dc of clergy that I know (and I've known a few, one way or another, over the decades).

I thought part of the reason for the big house provided was so that an extra reception room could be used for meetings?

I know vicars who seem to always be available and vocars who seem to take every school holiday off/don't do evenings/ have a lot of cups of tea as their work.

It really does vary.

I thought part of the reason for the big house provided was so that an extra reception room could be used for meetings?

Historically this has been true, but there's never been any excuse for people to not understand that it is also a family home.

My grandfather was a vicar. From all accounts he was an excellent vicar. At his funeral (over a decade after his retirement) there were huge numbers from his parish there.

On the other hand, from what I can gather, he was a very poor father. Basically he was unable “to dad” - he was only able “to vicar”. He was very good at giving excellent spiritual advice in a slightly distanced way but wasn’t very good at all when dealing with someone he was supposed to be attached with.

What I don't know is whether he was always unable to attach properly or whether his job had made him that way.

Me. You just described me. I have no faith now and resent that I spent so much time being judged by others and expected to do things. Including by my family. Quiet at home. Long hours. Exposed to some quite difficult situations. A quite strict family on top. Really difficult to make friends who understand. While others learn to talk on the phone by talking to family members, we would pick up the phone and it would be the funeral director wanting to book the vicar. The strange parade of people for Sunday lunch. Being made to wait so long to open pressie etc at xmas. Having the local homeless or drunk person turn up on xmas day and not being able to turn them away so spending xmas with strange people just turning up and expecting things. Being mercilessly and relentlessly picked on and bullied because of your dad's job - you know, nothing you can control or do anything about.

A lot has come up again recently ( I left home as soon as I could) now my father is now terminally ill. Though he us retired he was until recently still ministering. His parishioners still want a slice of him even though he's dying ffs.

Recognising the comment about being a great vicar - and my mum was a pro vicars wife - but not really being able to Dad.

I work in a church office and have had to deal with people who say things along the lines of "if you don't let us xyz we'll go to the papers and say you're not being Christian".
People assume you have a constant supply of money, food, sleeping bags etc just to hand out for the asking. And get aggressive when you haven't got it.
And if I've heard once I've heard 10000 times that we should just leave the building open all the time for anyone who is homeless. No one who's suggested it has been keen at my suggestion that I take their phone number and send any takers down to stay at their house. Nor are they volunteering to come and help.

@BackforGood

I thought part of the reason for the big house provided was so that an extra reception room could be used for meetings?

Historically this has been true, but there's never been any excuse for people to not understand that it is also a family home.

Exactly. It’s our home!

Pre pandemic there would be meetings but it’s still the place I’m raising my family.

We frequently get beggars at our door. It can be quite scary.

My grandads house was a tiny bungalow the bedroom could fit a bed and a wardrobe in but you had to walk sideways to get around

His wife and children rarely attend church or events

Why should a minister's wife and children attend church/events? Any more than any other adults spouse and children should be on parade at their work events.

@C8H10N4O2

His wife and children rarely attend church or events

Why should a minister's wife and children attend church/events? Any more than any other adults spouse and children should be on parade at their work events.

Totally agree.

It’s his job. My husband doesn’t come to work with me. I go to coffee mornings and the very occasional service but it’s my day off. The wife and children aren’t part of some package deal.

@ShirazSavedMySanity what’s wrong with them taking school holidays? I genuinely don’t get it.