Clergy families

[ClergyFamilyNameChange]

I've name changed for this in case there's some chance someone could identify me from this, although I doubt it.

Another thread has just triggered some shit memories in me this evening, and I wondered if anyone else was in a similar boat or had similar issues? It feels really inappropriate to post on that one though as it's obviously its own issue.

My father was a minister for thirty-five years. He was kind, sympathetic, over-dedicated, optimistic and really believed in a kind gentle god. He eventually wore himself into a total breakdown by trying to be good and kind and loving and supportive.

Despite his hard work, many people still spent forever complaining about this, that, whatever - the committees, the church politics, the quarrels - and would turn up at all hours to rant about their issues. He was used as a verbal punchbag and I still remember the sickening feeling of having to be well behaved and quiet upstairs as loud voices downstairs went on for hours in church meetings in the house. They treated our home like a drop in centre, including sending any drunks or addicts our way. There were countless times he would miss dinners or events or days out because some person absorbed in their own drama would demand he run over to them.

I am not excusing him entirely here. He was overly naive, he put them first and shouldn't, he should have had firmer boundaries. He shouldn't have been a minister really. And maybe it suited him to either be constantly out the house or be constantly working.

But equally, some abusive parishioners used Christianity as a way of insisting he had to be perfect and meek and mild while they lashed all their issues out on him.

I had two questions if you've read this far. Again this is not about that other thread and the issues there.

First, if you're in a church, is it better these days for clergy families - do they protect them from this shit, is there any safeguarding?

And second, did anyone else grow up in a home with issues like these - or was it just me and my family?

I NC'd for this. OP, I think your experience was probably a common one back then and not unknown now.
DH's is a minister's son (Baptist) and DH worked for a church for a while as a youth pastor when we were first married.
Our current church is in the process of appointing a minister, I nearly exploded when someone literally said of his wife "at least they come as a two-for-one package!". in 2021! No, she has a job!

My PIL's are firm, sensible and practical people and did not take a lot of nonsense, I think their impenetrable united front did a lot to protect the family. It's still a job where you are quite emotionally vulnerable to people you work with - they were eventually driven out of a role by someone with an agenda to undermine them. You can't move in their house for cards at Christmas though, they have such a network of friends they've kept in touch with.

I believe ministers/vicars now have much more rounded training and management support, but I'm still astonished at some of the expectations of church members. It's very common to have to fight for a day off or meeting-free evenings, and the pay is in no way representative of the amount of on-call expected.
I have a lot of respect for those who go into fulltime ministry, it's no easy path.

Hey but there's always cartoon church : Dave definitely understands the inner life of the vicar.

A really interesting thread. DH is a vicar and it worries me that DD might end up really struggling with some aspects of her upbringing in future.
I do try very hard to instil some degree of normality. I've always been very clear that we're not 2 for 1 and while I am Christian and very interested in the church, I've been very clear about drawing boundaries. I've found the church generally very accepting of this - I'm not at all bothered if they've got a problem with it though! DD and I do sometimes skip church on a Sunday (shock horror!) to go to the park or see friends
So many clergy spouses, even those under 45, still don't work or work very little - I've found - which I don't think is a great idea.
I'm quite determined that DD won't suffer financially for her father's vocation, as far as possible. I work full time and have been very focused on investing/ financial preparations. However I would love to go part time but DH's salary means this might be difficult to achieve.
I'm also conscious that our very nice home is not going to be our home forever. I've heard there's an issue with clergy retiring and finding themselves with nothing, so I've bought a home fairly close to where we live now and where we have a connection to give DD a stability.
A downside is that I find I spend quite a few weekends alone as DH often working all weekend, holidays sometimes get interrupted and long Christmas/Easter holidays don't tend to happen. I'm fairly ok with this. I see these sacrifices as my contribution to the church and I don't need to feel bad about attending every service/every meeting etc. I'm also quite happy to take myself/DD off somewhere too if we fancy a break.
DH tends to be very busy but he's also satisfied in what he's doing. He's very intelligent and a bit direct - so seems to be able to fend off trouble makers etc quite well. Sadly I think some of this is also down to him being a man, as well as his abilities. Some of his female colleagues from clergy school (!) have been treated extremely badly and suffered a great deal of discrimination from their congregations.
Despite the challenges, I do think there are many plus sides to clergy life. I love meeting different people from all backgrounds, you make friendships with people of all ages and backgrounds you learn so much about how society functions.I really enjoy taking part in Bible studies etc because this is often a starting point for discussing deeper issues about life - there are few forums in life where you can do this I find.

Friend who lived in a vicarage growing up had to put up with pretty much monthly break-ins. Not that they would have had much to steal...

@mrwalkensir

Friend who lived in a vicarage growing up had to put up with pretty much monthly break-ins. Not that they would have had much to steal...

This is why we have a decent alarm system.

We also installed a ring doorbell as we frequently have beggars turn up at the door and if my teenage daughter is home alone we don’t want her answering the door.

I’m not in a clergy family but am very good friends with a Vicar. The pressure on her in lockdown is immense. I know her well as we have been involved with a food project for a few years.m She seems to have to be available 24/7. She was also seriously harassed at one point which led to police involvement.

I think that the community work done by some clergy is amazing and not really known well within the wider community. She deals with addicts, homeless people and people expect her to listen to anything at all that spills out of their heads which I assume is harrowing. She has never broken anyone’s confidentiality either which must be a lot of pressure.

I had just some light general chat with her in the phone about two weeks ago and she was just quite grateful to talk about some quite mundane stuff and the fact I asked how she was whereas she is always asking others how they are.

Can't speak for everywhere, but where I am (Scottish Highlands) the ministers by and large keep family and church separate. My minister's family do attend church, but don't go to every church event, and don't take part more than any other church-goer. The minister does do some things in his house, but they are 'nice' meetings and he has a separate room just for that. In the Highlands the house is provided by the church, and tends to be a wee bit bigger to allow a separate space for churchy stuff. But I am positive that the minister gets to decide what stuff does and doesn't happen there. Anything liable to turn 'political' I'm sure he would do in the church building to avoid his family hearing any lively discussions.

There is a team of volunteer elders, and together with the minister they are the leadership of the church. They deal with anyone in the church who is being nasty/causing trouble, first nicely and then progressively sternly if nice doesn't work. This is normal. What is not normal is for a church to have a culture of bullying, whether that's the minister or anyone else.

I'd politely suggest that although your father sounds like a wonderful man, he maybe didn't know how to say no and set boundaries. This is vital in any job, let alone as a minister. Although it is important for the church as an institution to let it be known what is and isn't expected of ministers, it is far more important for the minister themselves to set the tone. The church can't save a minister who can't say no.

This thread has reminded me of a quote very near the beginning of ‘Excellent Women’, by Barbara Pym:

‘I suppose an unmarried woman just over thirty, who lives alone and has no apparent ties, must expect to find herself involved or interested in other people’s business, and if she is also a clergyman’s daughter then one might really say that there is no hope for her.’

A lovely read for anyone who enjoys period pieces (late 1940s/early 1950s).

DH is the son of a vicar. He was bullied mercilessly all though his school days just because he was the vicar's son.

His dad was branded a "pervy" vicar because some daft women took exception to her daughter being given sex and relationship information as part of the couples marriage preparation course that the Church of England insisted on in those days.

Daft women had a friend who was a journalist for The Sun and they ran a ridiculous story on him. It was devastating for DH to have to deal with the fall out at school.

He ended up leaving school at 16 ( with all grade As thankfully) even though he could easily have done A levels and gone to Uni. He just couldn't cope anymore with school life.

Gosh. This has brought up a lot of memories I had been merrily repressing 😔

I hated growing up in a vicarage. It destroyed my mother in particular who my father relied on heavily emotionally. I remember she couldn't easily get a job outside because he needed her. Once, part way through something she did as an adult, he made her take a year off to "support the family".

I found out much later as an adult that she nearly left him, and frankly sometimes I wish she had. She was a highly intelligent capable woman who was miserable with low level depression all my life.

Having one very low income growing up was super grim. So was being made to go to church. Having religion rammed down your throat to the extent of not being allowed to date or do normal teen stuff. Ha! I discovered after the fact that a boy I fancied aged about 15 or 16 had gone to my dad and asked permission to date me - and my Dad had said no, he was never to ask me out. How date he!!!

But the truly truly awful kick in the teeth was after my Mum died, still very much visible in that fishbowl of a vicarage, my Dad remarried and suddenly - well after we had all flown the nest never to return - he imposed boundaries with his "new family" which he never did with us.

Perhaps he learnt lessons. I don't know.

I am out off all organised parish religion now. I hate the idea of parish churches and that kind of environment. I have never made my own children go to church and my youngest is a glorious atheist through and through.

Smoke that, Grandad 😆 He keeps trying to convert her and sends so many religious books for Easter every year and that pious "real Christmas" advent calendar. She eats the chocolate, bins the propaganda 😆

I love the music and anonymity in a cathedral. I'll occasionally do that. But parish "worship", no way, not ever.

More things I hated.

Sitting in the front row at church.
Being told I was a disappointment for wanting to do a job on a Sunday as it should be special.
Not opening presents until the afternoon on Christmas Day. A common one 😔
Tramps always needing money to get to see their dying Grannie in Scotland... It was always Scotland.
The phone ringing constantly.
The bullying at school.
Being picked up from places by my Dad in a cassock.
No real holidays, just the occasional holiday swap with another priest and we'd end up visiting every single church we went past.
Thieves breaking in to steal random shit, like the contents of the freezer.
"Celebrating" some truly random stuff. My Dad phoned me once to tell me he was upset I hadn't remembered it was 44 years or whatever to the day of his ordination 🙄
Being always told things were "confidential" and people would be upset if I let slip my Dad was moving to another parish three miles down the road. YES, like anyone at my university would care if I mentioned that 😆

@GreyBow standing right alongside you with all that.

It's been really interesting reading all your experiences - thank you for sharing them. It's only in recent years that I realised that my childhood was very different to other people's and hugely different to my own children's. Some of your comments remind me of things I had forgotten, like @GreyBow's memories of everything being 'confidential'. We were strongly discouraged from sharing any personal information with anyone, probably to prevent gossip of any kind, but why did it matter so much if anyone found out we were moving to a different parish?

It's also reassuring to hear that other families lived in 'genteel poverty' too. Lack of money put enormous stress on our family, just to meet the everyday essentials, but you're not really supposed to mind or ask for help as you're Christians. I'm sure the Church could have done more to support families financially; just pay a slightly higher stipend for a start. My parents were generous and fed many passing homeless and helped with travel costs etc, but they really couldn't afford it. I really hope things are better for present-day families. Hopefully there is more acceptance that the vicar's wife (or husband) has a life and career of their own, which would help financially too.

More flashbacks here: my mother standing at the top of the stairs as I came home from a party once, expressing her disappointment in me being out late and having fun by reading out bible passages and pamphlets to me about the dangers of drink and frivolity. Nothing about 'we were worried', or 'mind out for the lechy old men' (heavens, that would have meant talking about sex!) - everything was bible and what will the parishioners think.

In hindsight, I can see my mother was very lonely, depressed and suffered a lot with not really being able to have any friends to talk to. Her isolation is probably what kept her with my dad, supporting him and the family (the church family more than the actual family, as others have commented too).

I loathed sitting in the front pew, and will always gravitate to the middle if it’s just me. To this day I will have muttered arguments with my mum when she tries to manhandle me to the front.

My parents wanted us to attend church but did not force us in our teen years. In fact I had more pressure from my mum than my dad. They were pretty relaxed when my sister started going to the Roman Catholic Church for a while. They were not fire and brimstone parents but are disappointed I don’t attend regularly. One of my children is an atheist and the other believes. My husband is also an atheist but gets on well with my dad and very respectful of their faith.

My brother in law is a vicar. He takes all school holidays off and I don’t think ever holds meetings at home. His wife and children don’t attend many events either. They have a lovely house provided but complain about it all the time. They don’t have any money either.

As an organist's wife, I can honestly say there is nothing more unchristian than a christian. There have been many an occasion when I have wished that the whole of the C of E would burn to the ground. I remember once husband was asked to play at a very good friend's wedding - we were obviously guests too. We arrived early so he could set up, practice, etc. Some parishoner handed me a bunch of hymn books and told me to hand them out. My children too have suffered, as have I, with the assumption that he will turn out no matter what to play five hymns - no one has ever phoned and said 'it's snowing heavily, or ,your wife has just had a baby, or, your wife has just had cancer, or, your son's been diagnosed with a major life condition why don't you give this Sunday a miss - we can say the service'. Never. Not once. Constantly demanding, two faced and bitchy with a handful of noteable and lovely exceptions.

It's not the same as a Clergy child or wife's life but you absolutely have my sympathy. I am not sure whether now I would take second to a musical instrument and certainly I would discourage my children from doing so.

I would second that too. I had a lot to do with clergy for many years for various reasons. I found them self absorbed, narrow minded, sexist and judgemental.

Golightly - I know a few like this. After a lot of years in ministry there is a sense of entitlement and forgetting what it is like working in a 9-5 job for some I think(obviously not all)

Salary isn't really that bad is it? 25k PLUS a 4bed house (rent would be way over a grand a month here, so average at 12k probably low) plus council tax paid 1-2k . Some initial allowances for furniture, a lot comes under expenses etc. so close to 40k equivalent? One friend because the stiped was lower than overall salary qualified for EMA (as was) and grants for school uniform etc too.

Many people I know who have gone into ministry (I used to be a church leader/ex is a vicar/ no longer in those circles but still know a lot of vicars) they are now earning more/living in a far nicer house than they would irl. (previously teachers/ etc)

DH grew up feeling very poor as the son of a Vicar. They lived in a huge old vicarage. His Dad's salary was tiny and his mum eventually went out to work full time to help make ends meet. They lived a very frugal life.

She did all the traditional Vicar's wife duties around a full time job. They were responsible for all household bills which were very high due to the size of the house.

On retirement they had to leave the vicarage and are now still paying a mortgage on the tiny little ex council house they had to buy to live in for their retirement. They are in their early 80's now and as poor as ever.

I really struggle with their sexist, homophobic and extreme right wing views and DH and I try to re educate them but we are fighting against their "Christian" views and their love of the Daily Mail.

DH is atheist and turned away from Church life when he was 15. He's also more left leaning politically which winds his parents up.

25k PLUS a 4bed house...
Plus most reasonable renovations sorted for you before a move by employer. In no particular order, I can think of: renovations including a conservatory, a studio and re-landscaping to look after large dogs.

@neap Catherine Fox's novels are amazing! I am neither a clergy spouse or daughter, but this thread immediately made me think of her novels, which are wonderful. I highly recommend Angels and Men and The Benefits of Passion. The third one, whose name I forget, isn't as good. I think many of you may find them cathartic!

I don’t think things have changed that much to be honest in some denominations. Someone I know was bullied growing up because their father was a Baptist minister and the kids would be teased as their Dad “only worked one day a week”. In reality, it was just as you described and there was no peace for the poor man - he was just constantly “on” and the whole family were expected to be perfectly behaved and angelic 24/7 whilst also being abused and ridiculed. The father got burnt out emotionally and physically. I think he was diagnosed with ME or something and was also very depressed. The Baptist church ignored his pleas for help. He tried to kill himself twice. How did the church react? Well, they evicted him and his family from the family home in the midst of all this (his wife was having cancer treatment at the same time) and as he was considered to no longer be a minister they did everything they could to wash their hands of him. He’d been a minister for most of his adult life and was approaching retirement. What other job could he do? They wouldn’t offer him a pension or sick pay etc. Awful situation. This was only in the past 6-8 years.

No direct experience of being clergy family but in terms of how it is now, there is beginning to be a growing sense that the vicarage is a family home. Pics that want to make meeting spaces inside the parish church will often now speak of providing space for hire or for green rooms for concerts but also for marriage preparation courses/PCC meeting etc so they are not in the vicarage. But as ever with the CofE it does depend on the parish (both in terms of the local culture and the parish income for making changes) and the clergy.

to those talking salary and 4 bed house - most vicars earn between 20 and 28k pa. The house isn't always 4 bed, isn't always upgraded, and doesn't always come with allowances for moving. It depends entirely on the parish. So some may do better than others. So yes, you can live on £20-28k, of course, you can but it's not really the high life!

Most clergy families really struggle with housing after retirement - unless a spouse is working, you can't often manage a mortgage on another property to move into when you retire and many rely on inheritance to enable ongoing housing.