Clergy families

[ClergyFamilyNameChange]

I've name changed for this in case there's some chance someone could identify me from this, although I doubt it.

Another thread has just triggered some shit memories in me this evening, and I wondered if anyone else was in a similar boat or had similar issues? It feels really inappropriate to post on that one though as it's obviously its own issue.

My father was a minister for thirty-five years. He was kind, sympathetic, over-dedicated, optimistic and really believed in a kind gentle god. He eventually wore himself into a total breakdown by trying to be good and kind and loving and supportive.

Despite his hard work, many people still spent forever complaining about this, that, whatever - the committees, the church politics, the quarrels - and would turn up at all hours to rant about their issues. He was used as a verbal punchbag and I still remember the sickening feeling of having to be well behaved and quiet upstairs as loud voices downstairs went on for hours in church meetings in the house. They treated our home like a drop in centre, including sending any drunks or addicts our way. There were countless times he would miss dinners or events or days out because some person absorbed in their own drama would demand he run over to them.

I am not excusing him entirely here. He was overly naive, he put them first and shouldn't, he should have had firmer boundaries. He shouldn't have been a minister really. And maybe it suited him to either be constantly out the house or be constantly working.

But equally, some abusive parishioners used Christianity as a way of insisting he had to be perfect and meek and mild while they lashed all their issues out on him.

I had two questions if you've read this far. Again this is not about that other thread and the issues there.

First, if you're in a church, is it better these days for clergy families - do they protect them from this shit, is there any safeguarding?

And second, did anyone else grow up in a home with issues like these - or was it just me and my family?

@Sexnotgender I get that and have gay clergy friends. However many churches preach that homosexuality is a sin. I don’t get the appeal of a it. The CoE church still doesn’t officially support gay marriage. It all seems ridiculous! I find it hard to understand the cognitive dissonance of it all. The Bible is pretty awful on sexuality as well!

@Ghostlyglow yeah that sounds familiar. It’s just a messed up situation! Sorry you had to go through that.

I want to give all you clergy kids a hug! It’s such a strange way to grow up!

@Peregrina

I agree which is why we have found that we have had to start paying people to do some of the jobs. Even then, that has caused complaints from some.

Well done. My experience with church is that they are often plugging the gaps of services that should be provided by professionals. The cuts to services just adds to the pressure.

Several of my family are married to (now retired) CofE clergy. My overriding memory of them when growing up was that they seemed permanently stressed (my aunts that is - I wasn't close enough to the vicars themselves as others mentioned they always seemed to be distant, absent or "On call")
At one point one set were in a parish relatively close to us - my aunt was always grateful when they could escape to ours on Christmas day, I think words had been had to my uncle one year that they were not going to have random ppl in the house and they were all going to ours instead after the service had finished !

They also had issues with housing when first retiring, however thankfully they got resolved.

Thanks @Pandapop17. It's a funny old life to be born into, that's for sure.

I made it a condition before I married my DH. I said there was no way I would be willing on any condition for him to answer any kind of ministry calling until our (then future) children were grown up/left home and we owned separate property.

Otherwise I think he could have gone down that path.

Do I feel guilty? No. If "God" wants to hold me to account later on, I have more than enough 🤷🏻‍♀️

But people still said at our wedding - that incidentally I had to pay for various church wardens to attend as it would have been "rude" otherwise, even though I didn't know them and I couldn't have more friends there instead - that "Ha, Ha... most vicar's daughters marry vicars". Nope. That was never going to happen to me!

I know a few married RC priests with children. (Ex Anglican) I can imagine that that is even more tricky, as catholic's are t used to the clergy having families. And I wonder if the celibate clergy resent them. Plus the RC church obviously expects 100% commitment to the church, and frequent moves to anywhere in the diocese. There can't be much space left for family life. My best friend is a priest, and he rarely gets a day off. Or is off duty.

@Toddlerteaplease

I know a few married RC priests with children. (Ex Anglican) I can imagine that that is even more tricky, as catholic's are t used to the clergy having families. And I wonder if the celibate clergy resent them. Plus the RC church obviously expects 100% commitment to the church, and frequent moves to anywhere in the diocese. There can't be much space left for family life. My best friend is a priest, and he rarely gets a day off. Or is off duty.

And frankly, given that most of the Anglican clergy who became Catholic priests did so because of their opposition to female ordination and the (partial) acceptance of gay clergy, I think the response of many Catholics was, ‘Thanks for adding to the misogynists and homophobes already in our ranks.’

Yes, I think many clergy are quite lukewarm about it. Plus I know many priests who are celibate, but are gay.

The RC stipend is also much much lower than the C of E one. No way could anyone support a family on it. Hence why a lot of them are hospital or prison chaplains. As they paid the NHS wage. I know it was quite frustrating when they were asking for more money.

Yes - I agree. The salary is not as bad as people make out. However I do know a fair few clergy who have had previously high flying careers in law etc so would be earning quite a lot more.

Well yes.. if you change from a high flying career to a teacher etc its similar isnt it - you don't expect to stay at ths high flying income when you leave a high flying role.

In many ways they are usually in a better position as they may enter theological college already owning a property/having assets I know a few in this position who then are able to rent it out while vicar-ing.

Growing up in a independent fundamental baptist, this happened ALOT so many pastors and people come and goes

@runningpram

Yes - I agree. The salary is not as bad as people make out. However I do know a fair few clergy who have had previously high flying careers in law etc so would be earning quite a lot more.

Things must have changed then. I remember, growing up in the 70s, we couldn't afford to heat the house and all our furniture came from house clearances.

@Ghostlyglow yup, I remember being cold too and my parents counting pennies and being Scrooge like with the heating and food.

I think it's slightly better than it used to be comparatively, and also there are many more accessible benefits than there were in the 1980s for working families to top it up. It's around 23/24,000 now for the average youngish parish priest. Considering the hours and the training, it's an absolute pittance still but relatively a bit better than it was for us.

It's good that it's better, money wise. I think it's acceptable for partners to have their own careers now. My mum was an unpaid flower arranger/ secretary for my dad and expected to make tea/ coffee after services etc. I even remember me and my mum making palm crosses.

But its 23/24 PLUS a 4 bed house and council tax isnt it. So really closer to 40k or more in some areas...

Life is expensive. Surviving on a single teacher/social worker /nurse salary is similarly difficult and without the 4 bed house!

I dunno @Ghostlyglow - the vicarage my uncle and aunt lived in was always freezing. Looking back on it, that could have quite easily have been because they couldn't afford to heat it - this was the late 90s. It was the most ridiculous building though - huge, single glazed so all heat was lost pretty much straight away...

Apparently the PCC sold it and it was torn down after they left as it was too expensive to repair .

@SavingsQuestions

But its 23/24 PLUS a 4 bed house and council tax isnt it. So really closer to 40k or more in some areas...

Life is expensive. Surviving on a single teacher/social worker /nurse salary is similarly difficult and without the 4 bed house!

It's a 24/7 job though @SavingsQuestions

@SavingsQuestions and then you are kicked out at retirement age without a house, without a decent pension (don't even get me started on the pension crisis in the church!).

If you earned £40,000 you could have a mortgage, eventually own outright AND you'd have choice and privacy over where you live.

@SavingsQuestions

But its 23/24 PLUS a 4 bed house and council tax isnt it. So really closer to 40k or more in some areas...

Life is expensive. Surviving on a single teacher/social worker /nurse salary is similarly difficult and without the 4 bed house!

Yeah I don’t think it’s as bad now but it also depends on the denomination. CoE clergy might have 4 bedroom houses but a lot of small demonstrations don’t.

To be honest it’s the impact on the kids that I think is unfair. That can be financial but it’s also the emotional burden and unrealistic expectations of the church. The adult knows what they are signing up to the kids don’t.

My dad was a kind person but was also a workaholic as a minister. He definitely could have made a different choice.

I know a lot of clergy and do get annoyed a bit when they moan. They do have hard jobs but so do nurses and teachers. CoE clergy generally get long holidays and decent housing. They also always on endless retreats ! I worked for a CoE charity for a while and the amount of pointless training days and work retreats seemed weird! Not many other work places have this kind of culture.

[quote GreyBow]@SavingsQuestions and then you are kicked out at retirement age without a house, without a decent pension (don't even get me started on the pension crisis in the church!).

If you earned £40,000 you could have a mortgage, eventually own outright AND you'd have choice and privacy over where you live.[/quote]
This. You don’t get to choose where you live. Our manse is lovely but desperately needs upgraded. It’s single glazed so energy bills are enormous.
DH is always on call. Even when on holiday. I’m about to go on maternity leave and people are still putting things in his diary.
He does funerals when on leave.

Not a vicar but my mum and dad were ministers of religion in a Christian church. I have to say I resented them a lot as a child and I still do in some ways. We moved about every 2-3 years to go to a different church or appointment, this was so tough growing up. To put it in context for primary schools I had 3 schools, secondary I got lucky (!) and only had 2. All the time having to leave my school or church friends and be the new kid again, usually in a completely different area of the country. I know the organisation has changed to some degree now and do longer appointments in places due to this reason but it was tough growing up. The pressure to go to church was extreme and I (and a lot of children) rebelled way more than I probably would have to get away from that environment. I did make some great friends that I am still friends with to this day, but it was a really tough upbringing and has also meant I hate moving house or any change to my home life as an adult.

I feel that I was always 2nd best to people who needed help from my mum and dad, and sadly just before my dad retired he passed away in a different country that they had been sent to for work and I never got to say goodbye to him. I know its a vocation for the people who choose it, but I think it's unfair to have children in that scenario as they do feel left out.

I see others mentioned finances. We had no money growing up. Yes we had a house provided, and council tax paid but the salary was very low. Even now it is only 15k a year in the UK, no matter what level in the church you are. This doesn't help when you retire on a crap pension and no property to live in!

... I am blown away by how many people have posted on this thread.

I don't know if I will be able to come back again after posting this reply, given how shaky I feel, and how emotional I keep getting over this subject. When I first posted, at first there were no replies, and then I came back and saw the third one. It made me sob my heart out and I admit I just hid the thread at that point.

To be honest, even now I'm bordering between such amazement that others here can understand - and such unbelievable anger that others are acting the exact goddamn way those parishioners did back then - all the petty sniping and jealousy from supposed Christians! Read the fucking room maybe? (And yes! I'm aware that this an overly emotive response - but then again that's quite a common response to abuse.)

To the other clergy children including @travailtotravel @AlexaPlayWhiteNoise @LePimpernelScarlette @Sleepingdogs12 @4butstilllearning @noplayonasunday @GreyBow @SagaBauer @Saltyslug @pandapop17 @GhostlyGlow (hope I haven't missed anyone)...

I don't know what to say. Thank you so much for posting and making me feel less alone.I relate to so much of everything you have written too.

I agree that it wasn't all bad. For example, we moved frequently, changed schools a lot, I had no friends or stability - but as a family we were intensely close, much more so than anyone else I knew. I loved all the "old ladies" of the congregation, who treated me like a granddaughter, and as a child, I sincerely loved God, and remember the feeling of security and comfort - I often see my obliviously happy childhood faith in the Flanders kids in the Simpsons, and I remember and miss that feeling - despite the bullying it caused at every primary school.

In terms of money and vacations - well, we were just so very poor. Meanwhile my dad worked 24/7 sometimes, and I am certain it would have worked out as lower than any kind of minimum wage or proper vacation time for those hours.We camped a few times I think, but nothing else that I can remember.

Another big dark memory for me (possibly triggering?) - my parents were really uptight and weird about sex, which made me feel deeply guilty and creepy for having normal urges. I could probably fill a therapy book with that stuff. However they were also unquestioningly supportive when I was sexually assaulted by a church member and went straight to the police. I literally can't make myself type about that whole ordeal or the nuclear fallout - but fuck me, I hope things are better these days in churches and Sunday schools.

To those who say my dad had poor boundaries - absolutely, I said as much myself in the OP, and I do not excuse him. But he was an individual placed in a role by a system, and it shouldn't be up to individuals to have to figure this shit out over and over, surely? No other organisation would keep putting children in the firing line like this.Surely it should be at the absolute heart of ministry training and not an add-on or afterthought?

Anyway - thank you again to most of you who have posted. I am glad to see that some of you keep better boundaries yourselves. I wish you all the best in the future and hope things work out well for your families.

Thank you @ClergyFamilyNameChange for posting and for giving us the space that I for one, didn't know I needed!

I too feel really emotional about this. And yes, yes, yes to those on this thread who thought it was their place to say "BUT this" and "BUT that" who had never experienced it themselves. Yes, that is just like what it was like with sniping at the time from other members of the congregation along the lines particularly of "Well, you have a free house". Thank you to those on here who did that and reminded me yet again why I don't go to a parish church now and I never will.

I have often thought though that there should be a Vicars Daughters Club as some of the kindest and most compassionate people I have ever met have been the daughters of Vicars. One in particular who I will give a shout out to even though she will never see this is the female funeral director who helped me when my baby died. I'd never met her before, had moved to that area, but went above and beyond what a funeral director should do and said it was because she too was a daughter of a vicar and "we look out for each other".

There is a shared compassion we have for each other and a sense that we went through the same sort of thing as children. Perhaps this is the one illusive positive that we have?

Thank you for posting and I hope you do again. Damn it that I should probably name change now, but I will hold off for a week or two.