Clergy families

[ClergyFamilyNameChange]

I've name changed for this in case there's some chance someone could identify me from this, although I doubt it.

Another thread has just triggered some shit memories in me this evening, and I wondered if anyone else was in a similar boat or had similar issues? It feels really inappropriate to post on that one though as it's obviously its own issue.

My father was a minister for thirty-five years. He was kind, sympathetic, over-dedicated, optimistic and really believed in a kind gentle god. He eventually wore himself into a total breakdown by trying to be good and kind and loving and supportive.

Despite his hard work, many people still spent forever complaining about this, that, whatever - the committees, the church politics, the quarrels - and would turn up at all hours to rant about their issues. He was used as a verbal punchbag and I still remember the sickening feeling of having to be well behaved and quiet upstairs as loud voices downstairs went on for hours in church meetings in the house. They treated our home like a drop in centre, including sending any drunks or addicts our way. There were countless times he would miss dinners or events or days out because some person absorbed in their own drama would demand he run over to them.

I am not excusing him entirely here. He was overly naive, he put them first and shouldn't, he should have had firmer boundaries. He shouldn't have been a minister really. And maybe it suited him to either be constantly out the house or be constantly working.

But equally, some abusive parishioners used Christianity as a way of insisting he had to be perfect and meek and mild while they lashed all their issues out on him.

I had two questions if you've read this far. Again this is not about that other thread and the issues there.

First, if you're in a church, is it better these days for clergy families - do they protect them from this shit, is there any safeguarding?

And second, did anyone else grow up in a home with issues like these - or was it just me and my family?

I had my paternal grandfather and four of my uncles in ministry in an American evangelical denomination, though similar in housing and expectations you've described OP.

I'm grateful my father did not, even if it did make him the black sheep and at times it felt like the rest of us by association - there was a lot of expectations just being the grandchild/niece - even more so on the wives and children - of being very active in the church and for behaviour - and when I did visit my paternal grandparents, there was an expectation of the house remaining very tidy and us out of the way because someone could drop by at any moment. They felt very busy, like we - and particularly those of us who were the black sheep - weren't that important or doing anything worth noticing unless we were helping with the church work. I got wrangled into nursery duty or helping with events fairly young and often felt I couldn't say no because I was a minister's granddaughter. There are things from when I was young where I feel I had the expectation to be considerate well beyond reasonable and was not protected from unacceptable behaviour purely because there was the idea that all members of the family should be meek, mild, and just pray the problem rather than openly and publically deal with the issue.

As others said, I think this is very individual - to the individual clergy, to the families, the communities involved, and the denominational expectations. I mean, one of my uncles also trained as a carpenter - naturally - before going into ministry and some of the expectations on him to help were somewhat ridiculous (though personally, I think my grandfather and some of my other kin took the piss more than most). What little contact I still have with that side of my family doesn't suggest it's gotten much better, but safeguarding in some parts of the US, especially around religious institutions, I feel is quite behind what it is now in the UK.

I am finding this thread more cathartic than I thought I would when I replied yesterday. Thanks @ClergyFamilyNameChange for starting this. It really is helping me to hear I am not alone, I hope its helping you too.

First, if you're in a church, is it better these days for clergy families - do they protect them from this shit, is there any safeguarding?
There's more awareness I think. But people do still try to take the piss. There's also more organisations which cater to specific issues and having them interlinked to the church make it easier to put people in touch with the correct and appropriate help.

And second, did anyone else grow up in a home with issues like these - or was it just me and my family?
My DM is a vicar (full time now, previously OLM but was essentially full time at that too) . Meetings generally were only occasionally held at our house occasionally (although they didn't live in a vicarage until after I had left home, my DM had a full time job too). My Dad wouldn't have had randoms knocking on demanding, they'd have been sent off with an earful of four letter expletives if they'd tried pushing their luck. Same for waifs and strays wanting to stay, absolute no go.

She had had people being dicks, parishioners and non parishioners alike over the years. Rudeness, demanding, sense if entitlement etc. She does too much and always has to the point of exhaustion and burn out. She doesn't take days off and never has, there's always someone wanting something or needing to be replied to and she can't ever switch off from that to her own detriment.

I am a practising and active church member, my Dad makes cakes and food for events but doesn't go to anything and never has. My sister doesn't either but does have a faith.

I'm a churchgoer, although non-denominational which may be different. Our pastor/church leader certainly is the go to person for lots of people's issues and is definitely carrying a big load emotionally speaking. Nothing happens in his home though and he can take time off without being called upon. I also think most of the 'team' are respectful, I've never been in a meeting with shouting although of course there are differences of opinion at times.

This is fascinating, my dad was a vicar, now retired. My father was and is an excellent priest - still missed in his old parishes. With working that hard it did affect us as a family, especially as my mum was very much the ‘vicars wife’ and massively involved in the church and charities. My sister and I knew where we were in the pecking order. However that is not to say they were not hugely loving parents - but God and church came first. I had problems with that as did my sister but she has now become a vicar herself, but she is child free.

We had loads of randoms coming to our door.When I was tiny we lived in a city and would get loads of ex prisoners, homeless all the time. My mum often dealing with them on her own - I remember tramps eating jam sandwiches and tea at the back door. Occasionally we had nastier people and they could be frightening.

It is also a life where I had no anonymity, - I was always the vicar’s daughter and felt a bit different. My sister and I both had some bullying too. Plus we were always the poorest - big house but no money.

OP I am sorry you are having difficulties - I often think there should be help groups for children of the clergy. Whenever I meet any it is so interesting to compare notes.

My dad wasn't a Vicar but was very heavily involved and a lay preacher. It felt like this was /is his priority . There were high expectations re us about behaviour, I never felt I could be honest with friends about my home life and family . I feel I am scarred by this and have complicated feelings about religion and so choose not to give it any head space..my son has become a Christian which I respect but again have complicated feelings about it. I have never discussed this other than with one of my sisters.

I grew up in a clergy family in the 1980's and 1990's. I remember it causing huge stress to my parents and, as a result, the whole family. We moved to a new parish in rural Norfolk where the previous incumbent had allowed people free access to the vicarage (next door to the church) including driving their cars across the garden to reduce walking distance to the church. My parents tried to put boundaries in place so that we had some privacy, but people just weren't interested as it 'had always been done that way'. My mum was under huge pressure to conform to the expectations of a clergy wife', when she was actually an independent woman with a job and wanted a life of her own in addition to the church life. That, combined with the lack of privacy and unrealistic expectations, caused a lot of marital strife as my dad struggled to balance everyone's needs.

Another factor was that clergy at that time (maybe still?) were on very low incomes. We lived in a lovely vicarage that was too expensive to heat properly on the income provided and this was not unusual - I remember visiting many other vicarage families in Norfolk living in dilapidated large houses with little heating and in a poor state.

I hope things have changed for the better. I think my dad was under huge pressure from all sides and my mum tried her best to keep everyone happy but often wasn't happy herself. I think there was a feeling that the vicarage family should be somehow 'perfect', whereas we were all people with the usual flaws and faults, albeit trying to be good people. Also, there's no reason why the vicar's wife and children should necessarily be particularly religious themselves, although this seems to be an expectation.

@JingsMahBucket 13 weeks is 65 days annual leave. Our vicar is full time. His leave entitlement is 28 days plus bank holidays.

[quote ShirazSavedMySanity]@JingsMahBucket 13 weeks is 65 days annual leave. Our vicar is full time. His leave entitlement is 28 days plus bank holidays.[/quote]
This!

My husbands allowance is the same.

Even on his time off though he ends up doing bloody funerals.

The only way he gets an actual holiday is if we go away and thanks to Covid that’s not an option.

I've de-lurked to post on this. I am a 'clergy daughter' and a lot of what you have written about resonates. As an adult I have looked back on my childhood with some sadness, although some of the memories are bound up with my father dying in my teens, which makes it more complex. We didn't experience the drama you described (or I didn't see it anyway). But my overwhelming sense of my early childhood when he was well was that there was a permanent lack of boundaries - he would be disturbed at all times day and night by people 'needing' him. One woman in particular would call repeatedly in the night and he would go to her. People would come in and out of the house seemingly at random. There were all sorts of meetings and parish events. I knew all the local homeless men, as they would often come for food. Thery would try to hug me when I saw them out when I was with friends. I used to really struggle with this.

One particular uncomfortable memory was my parents asking the teacher who had been found guilty of abusing boys at my brother school around for sunday lunch with his family. There seemed to be no sense that he hadn't done it - my parents seemed to just accept it. It was particularly strange as we didn't really have other family's round for dinner socially - everything we did was in relation to church groups or activities, so it really stuck in my mind.

I was also expected to be 'good' all the time - it was very clear that as the vicars daughter I was incredibly lucky and should be grateful for our 'position' and also had to be impeccibly behaved. I was a much longed for daughter, but not the kind of quiet, passive daughter that my parents had envisaged. I think this was tough for them, and I 'what people would think' was a frequent response to my behaviour. My memory of being at home is that we needed to be quiet all the time. There was a particular atmosphere the day he needed to write his sermon and we were repeatedly reminded that this was difficult and he needed peace (or maybe my mum just used this as a reason each time!). And there was a whole list of things I wasn't allowed to do on a Sunday, in particular play out with my 'non christian' friends (this was never expressed in that way, I just worked it out after a while).

The lack of anonymity and bullying are also familiar LePimpernelScarlette. And the odd scenario of living in a really big house but having no money. Even now people think of vicars children as having a middle class background, and in some ways it is, but we were amongst the poorest people I knew growing up.

I know from talking to people now that my father was highly regarded, considered a warm, funny and kind man. My memories of him are as anxious, busy and distant, although not unkind. When he died hundreds of people came to the funeral and were distraught. I remember being so cross that he still couldn't be 'ours' and that they didn't have a right to be so upset. As an adult I don't have a sense of knowing him at all, and I always knew that we came second (which was confirmed in conversations with my mum once I was an adult).

Oh and one more slightly more light hearted reflection. I grew up knowing I would never be Angel Gabriel or Mary in the Nativity, either in Church or in my primary school. They would never ever publicly make it appear as though I could have been shown any favouritism. We also used to have to give prizes away when we won things like raffle at church events.

I am absolutely not a believer now, so many parts of my childhood and how everyone responded when my dad died put me off. But I also have some fond memories of some aspects of church - the easter and christmas services always felt very special. And I enjoyed the yearly totting up of the tins of chocolates under the tree - we always received a ridiculous number of quality street etc.

@noplayonasunday it's odd to reflect isn't it?

In hindsight, you know no different - you see snapshots from other people's lives and know yours isn't like that. Your friends are scared to come over because of the big cold rambling vicarage and the graves in the garden. You know no different. It's only when you leave home that you start to realise how strange some of the indoctrination is.

The experience has definitely shaped me, and probably for the better as a human. I have put in place very firm boundaries and I have a strong sense of financial independence borne out of the real lack of money. But I gained the ability to talk to, or try and relate to nearly everyone you meet. My skills of being quiet and occupying myself have come out in lockdown - I had to be quite inward as a child and quiet a lot of the time, so that's helpful I guess. I am pretty unflappable in a crisis because you learn what to do and how to pitch in and help.

It has taken me longer to get over the guilt of buying nice things (someone, somewhere would always need it more than you) and being selfish for wanting something. Or doing nice things - what I would consider basic care (like moisturizer!) was frivolous self-care for my mother (God looks inside, darling) though I realize now she was quite extreme.

Harder to realise that what we now recognise as coercive control was probably quite common in many vicarages in the 70s/80s/90s I suspect.

@noplayonasunday I can really relate to parts of your post, especially having to be 'good' and also with having no money. On paper, I look like I come from a very privileged background, as I went to public school, but it was on a 100% bursary for clergy children, as dad's income was so low. We were privileged in terms of love and valuing education, but financially things were really tough.

Also how hundreds of people feel they know your father and how wonderful he was. They only know the public face and not the whole person, with the usual human flaws. My dad still is a kind-hearted man with a real compassion for others, but he also has a bad temper and wasn't always easy to live with!

Despite the negatives, we too enjoyed the huge generosity of parishioners at Christmas, with many tins of quality street etc, and also all learnt to be kind and caring people, regardless of whether we have religious belief or not. The non-judgemental values I learnt as a daughter of the clergy have stayed with me and have been invaluable.

How many vicar's children have read A Vicarage Family-Noel Streatfield's autobiography?

@MargaretThursday I always loved Noel Streatfield's books, but haven't read this one - I will give it a try, thanks

Oh and one more slightly more light hearted reflection. I grew up knowing I would never be Angel Gabriel or Mary in the Nativity, either in Church or in my primary school. They would never ever publicly make it appear as though I could have been shown any favouritism. We also used to have to give prizes away when we won things like raffle at church events.
Yes! The injustice of it was palpable! Didn't help that I was a good reader so always had to be the narrator, plus it meant I was always available to practice my lines!

Also how hundreds of people feel they know your father and how wonderful he was. They only know the public face and not the whole person, with the usual human flaws. My dad still is a kind-hearted man with a real compassion for others, but he also has a bad temper and wasn't always easy to live with!
This stands out to me and is something I still struggle with. The "public figure" of it. Or community figure rather. People assume my DM is the sweetness and light wonder woman all the time and she's not at all (because she's human!) but its hard because they also expect you to be the byproduct of that. As a child and as an adult. And you can't give the game away but actually, most of the time, energy and focus goes into being the community figure and the family of are second fiddle. We joke that my DM is ready for Christmas some time in February because advent etc is so exhausting and consuming.

There was a thread going just now which has been deleted and how the OP was blaming the vicar for her mental health suffering. And whilst that OP is obviously having a dreadful time of it, I've seen it so many times where the lashing out is aimed at the vicar. And the mental health crisis becomes focused on the vicar, and they are the crutch, but also the emotional punch bag.

Have any clergy daughters (or spouses, for that matter) read any of Catherine Fox's novels? Angels and Men is about the conflicted daughter of a C of E priest studying for an MA in theology and having relationships with two priests-in-training, and The Benefits of Passion is about a woman ordinand (and I think there are others since). She's married to the Dean of Liverpool Cathedral (or he used to be).

NC for this. DH is a curate, but self supporting as he has another full time job. We don't live in the parish and we're not in a church house so thankfully we don't have people knocking on the door. I hadn't thought about how their dad being one of the clergy might affect our kids (too tiny now) but this has been really thought provoking for me in establishing boundaries as we grow up.
I have always said I don't mind making the occasional cake but I am never ever doing Sunday school. I have my own job and life and I have told DH it must always be clear to any church he serves in that we are not a package.

The tins of Quality streets yes!!! Also I got a lot of Easter Eggs..... The pressure to be good was huge and My sis and I really were for the most part when we were small. Although teen years were hard. I was seen drinking on the Common the day I finished my A’Levels and a worried parishioner called my dad. (He was very laid back about it).

Also there were always meetings in the house, or marriage chats etc. My dad would be trying to talk to some poor couple about marriage, while my sister and I would be screaming blue murder at each other! I also remember precious evenings when my dad was around and was relaxed, looking forward to a family evening, and then the door would go and someone would need him. Our two week holidays (somewhere in the UK) were always amazing as we had his attention and time.

When I went away to university I loved not being in that goldfish bowl. I think it has had both positive and negative aspects on my life. I don’t go to church much now, but I do still have a faith. But my sister, who perhaps was wilder than me, had become a vicar in the last few years. She is pretty fantastic at it too.

I can only answer your first question. I have been closely involved in church leadership over the last several years.
In my experience it depends largely on the clergy themselves. Each clergy is different as people are different. And each wife[only have experience of clergy who are male married or single, female] is different too, with their own boundaries.
Yes, there is safeguarding, but at the end of the day, if clergy are determined to overwork, go over their own imposed boundaries, there is not a lot the leadership can do about it. Yes, the situation can be put further up the line so to speak, and yes, higher up clergy "health" people can get involved, but there is more or less a limit in what they can do.

I have my own job and life and I have told DH it must always be clear to any church he serves in that we are not a package.

Absolutely this. DH was very clear even at his interview that we are not a package. We have a young family and I work full time.

It was quite funny when he started the number of parishioners who asked if I worked! Many were surprised that I did.

My mother didn't work - and was the worse for it. Also, with the pittance that is vicar pay, I cant see how a family can survive without one partner working elsewhere to be honest?

Ha ha to the marriage chats. And the confirmation chats. And the Bishop coming for tea every now and then.

It's really interesting to hear everyone's stories.

@AlexaPlayWhiteNoise yes I saw that thread too and could totally see both sides. I think an awful lot of my Dad's time was spent with people who were struggling with their mental health - particularly given this was the 1970's and there were no community based NHS services. I can imagine the pressures haven't gone away - whilst we have services, they are overwhelmed, and potentially a mismatch for some people who value a more faith based approach. I also smiled at your comment about being the narrator - that was familiar too.

@MargaretThursday yes, yes, thats been a real memory jog, I did read some Noel Stretfield. I was entranced by some of the storylines. And they were considered very appropriate by my parents!

@Neap no I haven't heard of those - will have a look. Thanks for mentioning.

The other thing I have just remembered is how much I LOVED watching Rev...some of it was obviously quite different, but there were moments when it just used to hit the mark completely.

@ClergyFamilyNameChange... I'm sorry, I feel like I have used this thread for my own rant. I guess the answer to your second question is yes, I definitely feel like I recognise some of what you are saying. Growing up as part of a clergy family is a very strange experience, with each parish and family having its own combination of nuances. On re-reading your initial post the one thing that struck me is that I did not have to watch my father get old - so I only had a relatively brief experience compared to yours. I suspect that I would have ended up feeling quite bitter and frustrated that he always put others first. I think he would also have become 'worn out' by it (he would never have stopped) and that would have been difficult to watch. I do think it sounds like you were a little unlucky in terms of the parishoners though. There were definitley a few that seemed to need a lot of my Dad's time, and didn't recognise the boundaries, but generally they were troubled or distressed rather than angry.

@travailtotravel

My mother didn't work - and was the worse for it. Also, with the pittance that is vicar pay, I cant see how a family can survive without one partner working elsewhere to be honest?

Ha ha to the marriage chats. And the confirmation chats. And the Bishop coming for tea every now and then.

Absolutely. Luckily I’m a relatively high earner or we’d really struggle.

Sexnotgender -I think that is very sensible. My mum was so entrenched that during our teen years she took her eye off the ball with us. She had also gone back to teaching, part time, but with church, teaching, Sunday school, flowers and the Children’s Society stuff we got a bit lost. I think looking back she would agree that she took on too much. My dad still (pre-Covid) at 84 does services to help out. It really is ‘who he is’ and lockdown has damaged him as he misses it so much. He actually looks about 20 years younger when he does a service.

OP I hope you can find some peace with your memories,. Your dad was clearly a good and kind man and took on too much. I really sympathise with a lot you wrote.

I definitely do bits and pieces where I can but it’s very much on my terms. Church is his job, I have my own!