Clergy families

[ClergyFamilyNameChange]

I've name changed for this in case there's some chance someone could identify me from this, although I doubt it.

Another thread has just triggered some shit memories in me this evening, and I wondered if anyone else was in a similar boat or had similar issues? It feels really inappropriate to post on that one though as it's obviously its own issue.

My father was a minister for thirty-five years. He was kind, sympathetic, over-dedicated, optimistic and really believed in a kind gentle god. He eventually wore himself into a total breakdown by trying to be good and kind and loving and supportive.

Despite his hard work, many people still spent forever complaining about this, that, whatever - the committees, the church politics, the quarrels - and would turn up at all hours to rant about their issues. He was used as a verbal punchbag and I still remember the sickening feeling of having to be well behaved and quiet upstairs as loud voices downstairs went on for hours in church meetings in the house. They treated our home like a drop in centre, including sending any drunks or addicts our way. There were countless times he would miss dinners or events or days out because some person absorbed in their own drama would demand he run over to them.

I am not excusing him entirely here. He was overly naive, he put them first and shouldn't, he should have had firmer boundaries. He shouldn't have been a minister really. And maybe it suited him to either be constantly out the house or be constantly working.

But equally, some abusive parishioners used Christianity as a way of insisting he had to be perfect and meek and mild while they lashed all their issues out on him.

I had two questions if you've read this far. Again this is not about that other thread and the issues there.

First, if you're in a church, is it better these days for clergy families - do they protect them from this shit, is there any safeguarding?

And second, did anyone else grow up in a home with issues like these - or was it just me and my family?

Being always told things were "confidential" and people would be upset if I let slip my Dad was moving to another parish three miles down the road

I remember this well!

The house isn't always 4 bed, isn't always upgraded, and doesn't always come with allowances for moving. It depends entirely on the parish

Also this. I lived in some lovely and some not so lovely homes with damp, single glazed windows, 20-odd year old kitchens, knackered heating systems and falling down outbuildings.
Whatever my Dad was earning in the 90's/early naughties it certainly did not feel equivalent to 40k, I rarely had new clothes it was always charity shop stuff and never a pile of presents under the Christmas Tree/for birthdays.

I also suffered low level bullying at school, and struggled with the expectations of the congregation. I did go through a massive goth phase which I'm sure amused everyone 🤣

Looking back my Dad had an awful time at one church. Certain people made his life absolute hell and he ended up very unwell at one point. The lack of boundaries and being "on" all the time really resonates. He's definitely a people pleaser and this definitely impacted on my mum and myself.

We also used to have a camera at the door also so that if it was Stuart the alcoholic or Sandra the beggar we could send Dad to the door .

I married a vicars son and we had very similar upbringings, people joke that our dad's are very similar!

@travailtotravel

to those talking salary and 4 bed house - most vicars earn between 20 and 28k pa. The house isn't always 4 bed, isn't always upgraded, and doesn't always come with allowances for moving. It depends entirely on the parish. So some may do better than others. So yes, you can live on £20-28k, of course, you can but it's not really the high life!

Most clergy families really struggle with housing after retirement - unless a spouse is working, you can't often manage a mortgage on another property to move into when you retire and many rely on inheritance to enable ongoing housing.

Yes this is very true.

There are some rather sweeping generalisations on here.

and what on earth is the "sitting on the front row" issue ?
I can think of 10 different ministers we've had at our Church over all the years I've been going there. No souse, and no clergy children have ever sat on the front row. I have also got to know friends in other denominations and other local Churches, and can say the same there, so it isn't a quirk of my Church.

Like all jobs, there are pros and cons.
Like all jobs, a lot of people on the outside will see all the 'perks' not think about the downsides, and when you are living it, you will know about the downsides without thinking about the positives.

Too many of the issues listed on here though, aren't "the Church" 's fault, but are an issue to do with the individuals and them setting boundaries (or not).
I'm not minimalising any poster's experience, but I am pointing out that was your experience, and doesn't translate to "all Churches"

@travailtotravel

to those talking salary and 4 bed house - most vicars earn between 20 and 28k pa. The house isn't always 4 bed, isn't always upgraded, and doesn't always come with allowances for moving. It depends entirely on the parish. So some may do better than others. So yes, you can live on £20-28k, of course, you can but it's not really the high life!

Most clergy families really struggle with housing after retirement - unless a spouse is working, you can't often manage a mortgage on another property to move into when you retire and many rely on inheritance to enable ongoing housing.

The Christian denomination I am involved in Salary is £32 - £36k. Moving expenses paid. No rent to pay, or upkeep of property. Your personal telephone bill yes. But no insurance, electricity, water etc etc to be paid by the minister and family. Yes, there is the issue of no house at the end of it, as essentially the minister and family are "renting".

@BackforGood you must have an
incredibly unusual and unique church to be
so seemingly at odds with everyone else's experiences who have lived through it. But what's probably more likely is if you've not lived it, you don't know it I guess 🤷🏻‍♀️ Vicar's families are probably just as good now at hiding it as we were then.

There are no positives whatsoever to you growing up in a vicarage. None. It's all sacrifice. The salary is even called a "stipend" ffs. It was so woefully low when I was little, we lived in charity shop clothes and were always hungry as teens. That job I mentioned before that cause conflict because I was working on a Sunday? It paid for food first and foremost. Then when I got an extra day it paid for me to learn to drive as my parents couldn't even afford the car insurance for me to learn at home.

Zero advantages. I don't count tins of Christmas chocolate as an advantage! I'd rather have not felt hungry as a teenager on a normal day!

Both my parents could have earned a lot more and had a lot more advantages had my dad not felt "called" to the ministry.

The pension now is a pittance and nobody can afford a mortgage while they are in the ministry on a priest's stipend alone.

By the way; my first job after graduating university in 2000, I earned £18,000 a year. More than my Dad who at that stage had been on the ministry for years at that stage...

Grrr. This has got me so cross as I literally cannot think of an advantage.

And nobody says to a child who has grown up with parents who are teachers "oh, you only see the disadvantages while everyone else sees the advantages."

And nobody says to a child who has grown up with parents who are teachers "oh, you only see the disadvantages while everyone else sees the advantages."

I was actually talking about one adult, looking at another adult's job, but, if you were comparing disadvantages of your parents' jobs, then of course they would.

The discussion is about Clergy families. That includes all denominations. So the family home in my denomination (nor my parents', nor my friend who is a pastor - so that is 3 different denominations) is an ordinary home in a road within reasonable distance from the Church. It isn't in the Churchyard.
My point is, I know about all the families that have been the families of the ministers at my own home Church, but I also know about quite a few other families, who we happen to know as friends (eg from hobbies eg from our dc being friendly etc - nothing to do with going to their Church), so I know for certain my Church isn't "incredibly unusual and unique". Then, because ministers and their families move around, then those I've happened to become friends with also have experiences of other Churches they have served at.

I absolutely am not, and have not minimised any individual experiences, I am just saying you can't say "all families of clergy".

I totally agree that our ministers are underpaid.

However, there is no way you can say "there are no advantages" just with most jobs. Lets just start with not having a long commute. Or not having to be at work early, so you can have breakfast with dc and take them to school - tell people who have to leave home before 7am every day that isn't a nice bonus for a working parent.

We lived in a village where the vicar was quite active and wrote in the newsletter every month. One month there was a long rant from him bemoaning the fact that he was only paid £20,000 and how he’d previously been a well paid accountant. He had four children. This angry rant seemed to be directed at his parishioners as if it was their fault. I’ve never forgotten it.

@BackforGood I promise you that anyone who "knows" my family (they don't, just as you don't) would probably say the same sort of thing as you are. We are awfully, awfully good at hiding it.

Zilch advantages as for everything you have mentioned, there always is the fact you are on call. Maybe, maybe, maybe your parents can eat breakfast with you occasionally (like teachers and lawyers can make pancakes for your kids the odd morning they are not doing the equivalent of Morning Prayer) but then a car crash happens at the end of the street and a person dies (I remember this from when I was 8), someone dies through suicide in the parish (aged 7, 12 and 15 that I remember vividly, more that I wasn't in the room for when the phone call came). A young child dies playing rugby (I was 14 when that call came through to me and I picked up). And these aren't even the standard phone calls, calls on your time, the issues, the politics, the "normal" funerals and grief. If your parents are lawyers or teachers or directors or managers, your children were not affected like this and also have to deal with the other stuff repeated on this thread.

What were the other things? The lack of a long commute? Not having to start work early? You have no clue 😔 none.

I feel very very sorry for your friends as they will be hiding the strain I imagine as much as we all did. Maybe it's easier now. I think it could be. But it will never, ever be "easy" or a desirable job with any "advantages" for the family.

BackforGood Unless you are clergy, or the child of clergy, you have absolutely no idea of what it is to grow up as that. And I say that with kindness, and respect, and Christian love. You may be in a church and "know" clergy families, but you have no idea of what it is to live it. And of course there are going to be different experiences, I know loads of different types of clergy families spanning over 30 years.

But I'd hazard that most if not all would say that their personal cost of the vocation (because it is a vocation, it's not a job) is to their whole family. Because when you accept ministry as your calling, you're accepting it for your family too. And it is a 24 hour job. 365 days a year. Because there's always somebody who wants or needs something.

Like greybow said, it is harrowing as a child to have phone calls come through about death, and funerals, often left as answerphone messages. Or to have people turning up and knocking on your door, wanting and demanding, whether it be time, energy, money, shelter, because any person who wants something can find your address or phone number in the parish magazine. The being held to a higher standard purely because you are the child of a vicar. The being visible, again, because your parent is a "pillar of the community" which dictates your behaviour and experience as a child.

You never know if your parent is going to be available to you, everything, and I do mean everything if subject to change because someone else might need them. The dead, dying, family of the bereaved, the needy, those in mental health crisis, those who are struggling, children are struggling, parents are struggling, those with no family, the sick, the family of the sick etc, your parent is constantly available to all these people, all of the time. And that's without the normal services, the sermon writing, children's church, going into school to do assemblies, the Diocesan meetings, parish Council, funerals, funeral prep, aftercare of families, weddings, baptisms etc, morning prayer, bible study groups, evensong, sunday service, notice sheet, food bank, clothing bank. And those are just off the top of my head

I do agree that its largely about boundaries, emotional and physical, but as a child, you can't impose those for other people on behalf of your family. Especially when being an emotional support for those who require it is part of the job. And they come straight to the source, because "the office" is the home.

I hope I've articulated this well, it's late, it's been a difficult, emotional week for me and i am exhausted with grief at the moment. So if I have come across as rude then I apologise in advance as that was not my intention.

As the child of a clergy man I’d say that’s a very normal experience op. Not only did god have a hot line to my dad but the congregation and random community oddballs did too. Lots of church elders and followers with vocal pedantic disapproving opinions about anything .. the length of a skirt or boundryless accessibility. It wasn’t a great childhood. It was all about serving others and I still have a lot of guilt when I put my needs first

Yes there was always some ongoing trauma playing out in my childhood - answering calls where someone has passed away, answering the door to unknown homeless people when home alone, dad called away during Christmas meals together, prayer meetings in my family lounge requiring polite interactions and tea making when I just needed down time away from people

@ClergyFamilyNameChange thank you for starting this thread. As a clergy kid growing up in the 80s I can relate to what you and others have shared. My dad eventually had a breakdown as he couldn’t cope with the expectations of his church and faith.

It took me a long time to realise how fucked up my childhood was. When I had children I finally realised how over exposed I was to adult problems and expectations. I finally left faith and church and never want them influenced by the horror of church and Christianity.

I do try and focus on some of the positives. For example years of forced small talk with endless Sunday lunch guests has made me very good with people. I am not the most academic person but have done well in my career because I understand a wide range of people and personalities. Despite the fact that I am an introvert I can communicate well with others when needed.

The thing I resented the most was the constant moving. The denomination my dad was in expected ministers to move on every 8 years or so. I was constantly the new kids and weird clergy kid! I hated it so much!

I still have clergy in my family and think it has got a bit better. A lot of it depends on the personalities of the clergy. My brother in law has a dictator style! He just likes the preaching and has no interest in pastoral care. It is a job that can attract some controlling people who love having power over a congregation.

My dad didn’t get a house with the job so dads visitors were all to our private home.

As a lot of victors/ministers/pastors wives do, my mum got sucked into working fir the church for free. So the church got two for the price of one employee.

The experience of clergy families will differ according to location. Village in the Cotswolds will be very different to inner city London.

My dad was working with homeless people/young mums/asilum seekers/people with additional needs/elderly who hit issues and needed support or advocacy. He also worked with quite a effervescent congregation and some very passionate caring people. Sadly the elders and some people were also judgmental fire and doom, I have always felt that they and my family were disappointed in me. I was expected to behave a certain way consistently and not have my own independent thoughts. In some of my 80s childhood churches I noticed very 1950’s opinions around the women’s role and being gay. These attitudes seemed to linger ..

Almost all our holidays and day to day activities were linked to the church.

I was always aware that my childhood could be much much worse and I appreciate the positive parts. I was loved by my dad despite all the judgment. I have bought my own children up very differently.

@Saltyslug it’s weird isn’t it. My parents were some of the kindest people. We regularly had people in need living with us , were providing food for people in dire expectations. It really was admirable. At the same time I was taught that homosexuality is a sin and non Christians are going to hell. It’s very confusing to make sense of!

@pandapop17 The phrase "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is one that I really hope isn't as prevalent anymore but sadly it will be in lots of places as despite retiring, my Dad who still promotes an anti-gay view is active and ministering.

@GreyBow yes my brother in law vicar has that view and he leads a supposedly modern CoE church. People don’t realise how harmful Christian teaching can be! Homophobia is accepted in evangelical churches.

As one who was the daughter of a public official, I can related to much of this - how you are expected to behave because bad behaviour reflects upon your father.

Church wise though, some of the complaints do seem specific to particular churches. My own Church (not C of E) has a manse well away from Church - I am a regular attender and have never attended a meeting at the Manse, they are almost always held in Church.

One person listed the jobs the vicar needed to do aftercare of families... ...bible study groups, evensong..... notice sheet, food bank, clothing bank. All these jobs have been delegated to others in my own Church. Even then that can become a burden on the volunteers, and we have started to pay staff to do some of them.

However, I am glad you started the thread OP because it's a good reminder that we need to remember our clergy are human.

[quote pandapop17]@GreyBow yes my brother in law vicar has that view and he leads a supposedly modern CoE church. People don’t realise how harmful Christian teaching can be! Homophobia is accepted in evangelical churches.[/quote]
My brother in law who is a C of E vicar says there is a lot of homophobia in the Church.

Pere I think it’s easy to minimise work load

I agree which is why we have found that we have had to start paying people to do some of the jobs. Even then, that has caused complaints from some.

My dad was a vicar. He was an alcoholic and he and my mum had a very unhappy marriage and fought a lot. I had a shit childhood. I've no idea how many people actually knew what was going on in our house. I think they kept it well hidden, and I also think people didn't want to know.

[quote pandapop17]@GreyBow yes my brother in law vicar has that view and he leads a supposedly modern CoE church. People don’t realise how harmful Christian teaching can be! Homophobia is accepted in evangelical churches.[/quote]
My husband is very progressive and would happily marry a gay couple. There are many, many ministers who are totally opposed to this🙄

My dad was available 24/7 for anyone who wanted him. He would go to people in the middle of the night and, on more than one occasion left family holidays early. He was a tortured soul and I'm pretty sure had no emotional support from the church.