Woman thrown out of Sainsbury's for not wearing a mask.

[Viviennemary]

When asked why she wasn't wearing one she told the police they were not allowed to challenge her or ask about her disability. (wrong apparently). She said she'd be taking them to court. Police have criticised ministers for giving conflicting advice. I think it's time this was cleared up. It's far too vague. So seems like people do need some proof of the reasons they can't wear a mask.

@PlanDeRaccordement

to people wandering around maskless spreading Covid?

A maskless person can only spread Covid if you get closer than 2m to them. So if Covid is increasing due to the maskless, it’s not because they’re not wearing a mask, but because others are not social distancing. Masks were only brought in later in the pandemic to be a sort of final defence in confined areas a where social distancing may not be possible 100% of the time.

It's been proved that Covid is airborne and that people can catch it even when they've not been within 2 metres of an infectious person. Screens and 2 metres are only protection against direct line, i.e. coughs, sneezes, spluttering, spitting, etc. Think more of covid as being hot breath on a cold day, or vaping/smoking, where you can see the vapour/smoke until it dissipates but even when you can't see it, you can still smell smoke/vapour. So, someone, say 4 metres away, you walk into the space they've just vacated and you could well be inhaling their vapour, and covid if they were infectious!

If you are one of the few who is GENUINELY unable to tolerate a mask for 20 mins or whatever, surely you would do your best to avoid having to go in a shop? I know I would, and would use online delivery/ask mask wearing friends/family for help. Clearly many of those not wearing masks do not fall into this category.
I don't see what's wrong with having to provide proof of exemption - pay GP/healthcare staff etc a small fee for this, show it when required, no need to give personal medical details. If you want to be treated differently, and your reasons are genuine, then surely this would make it easier for all concerned. The poor shop workers should not have to be making these decisions, and no doubt being much less likely to question a burly bloke than a lone woman (and who can blame them). I wonder if these idiots will also refuse the vaccine as they think they are immune and special?

I was in my local supermarket last week (in Germany). There were several announcements whilst I was in there, to the effect that masks were compulsory (no news there as they have been since last March/April), anyone not wearing a mask either had to produce official documentation to prove that they were exempt or they would be escorted from the premises.
I do not have any issue with this. Everyone knows the rules.

@user1497207191
It's been proved that Covid is airborne and that people can catch it even when they've not been within 2 metres of an infectious person

Yes I read that study and it was done in a 3m x 3m confined room with no ventilation and what they proved was that microdroplets from your breathe can linger in the air. But, for obvious ethical reasons, they did not actually prove that people can catch Covid from these microdroplets nor did they prove any rate of transmission or risk profile. So it is currently a theoretical possibility rather than a proven fact.

It reminds me of the AIDS epidemic where they found the HIV virus in drinking fountains from saliva. So everyone panicked and ripped out the water fountains from all the schools, parks, offices and started selling bottled water. In the meantime scientists studied whether the presence of the HIV virus in drinking fountains could actually infect people with HIV, and they found out no it did not.

So with Covid, it could go either way. It may be transmissible if you’re put in a 3m x 3m room that a Covid positive person has breathed in for awhile. Or not.

You're forgetting about fomites, which is a known source of transmission and massivley increased without masks.

Given how infectious the new strain has been, and given that's at a time when we were with pretty severe restrictions during December, i.e. pubs & restaurants closed, 2 metre social distancing, masks, working from home, etc etc., then I think the rate of infection does suggest that covid is airborne beyond the 2 metres. I know a few people who've caught it and are adamant they weren't within 2 metres of anyone, i.e. working at home, click n collect food, no socialising, wiping down deliveries, wearing gloves/masks when collecting click & collect, etc - the only answer is that it's airborne.

@user1497207191
Yes, agree that with the new strain is more transmissible, and one hypothesis is that it is airborne. The Gov.uk page says it emerged in September 2020 and was circulating by November 2020 which was part of reason for England’s November lockdown as it was sourced in Kent and the rapidly spread into Essex and London. The maps showing its increasing prevalence do show that it thrives especially well in urban areas/crowded conditions.

As to why it is more infectious, the gov.uk page dated 20 Dec 20, says:

“We know that mutations in the spike protein, the part of the virus that makes it infectious, can change how the virus interacts with human cells. However, we do not yet know the mechanism for this increase in transmission.”.

Again, one hypothesis is that the mechanism is airborne, but it’s not yet known.

www.gov.uk/government/collections/new-sars-cov-2-variant

@OwMyNeck

You're forgetting about fomites, which is a known source of transmission and massivley increased without masks.

Actually fomites are “objects capable of harbouring or transmitting disease” and are actually increased with the use of masks.

The masks become fomites when poor mask hygiene (reusing without washing them, touching items and then touching mask, etc), make the mask a breeding ground for Covid and actually spread Covid. It’s the same with people rewearing disposable gloves going round day after day to shop after shop, touching their face, touching things...they spread Covid from item to their glove and from glove to next item, or their face and so on.

*want to add that no study has shown fomites to be a significant cause of transmission.

@Haffiana

Well I’m not defending someone that acts like this but time and time again on this thread people are showing a total lack of empathy towards with disabilities basically saying they’re not fit to mix with society.

No-one has said that. You are turning this into something that it isn't for your own agenda. Why?

Really?? Read through the thread in the best mumsnet tradition-people stating rape victims should divulge personal details (and probably make their illness worse) in order to gain access to shops, people being told they can’t go into shops and should stay at one because of their mental illness. People being told to just get in with it because their government tell people they have to without any recognition on what this is probably doing to large amounts of people (a quick google will tell you). I’m not altering anything to fit my agenda. The question is why are you ignoring what is being said to fit yours?

It should be, No Mask, no entry. No exceptions.

Please note I said no entry, not no service.

I also believe in the "No jab, no travel" requirement. Yes, trains, bus, taxi and aircraft.

Actually fomites are “objects capable of harbouring or transmitting disease” and are actually increased with the use of masks

No they aren't. The masks will harbour fomites, but no mask means fomites are everywhere.

I've just picked up some medicines from our dispensing GP surgery.

The sign simply says no entry without a suitable face covering.

@OwMyNeck

Actually fomites are “objects capable of harbouring or transmitting disease” and are actually increased with the use of masks

No they aren't. The masks will harbour fomites, but no mask means fomites are everywhere.

No @OwMyNeck. No mask does not mean that fomites are “everywhere”

You are not understanding what a fomite is. It is not clusters of virus floating about everywhere. It is not a type of mite carrying Covid. It is quite simply any object that can harbour and transmit disease.

medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/fomite:
fo·mes, pl. fom·i·tes (fō'mēz, fōm'i-tēz),
Objects, such as clothing, towels, and utensils that possibly harbor a disease agent and are capable of transmitting it; usually used in the plural.
Synonym(s):

So you see, no mask doesn’t create any fomites at all, but a mask itself is in danger of becoming a fomite because it is an everyday object worn to catch the virus, and then if proper hygiene is not used, will certainly be a breeding ground for Covid, harbouring it and ultimately transmitting it.

This can’t happen if there is no mask.

So wash your masks - it's not rocket science, and given that scientists and doctors have been banging on about hygiene for nearly a year, not news.

@Tavannach
Exactly. That’s why the wash hands and wash masks have been said over and over. In addition, as I pointed out to @OwMyNeck, studies done into the role of fomites have shown they do not significantly contribute to transmission rates. So a grubby mask isn’t a massive risk.

All those backing Sainsbury's and the police, how would you feel if she was chucked out for taking her dog into the store despite a no dogs rule? What if she explained she was blind and the dog was a guide dog? Still happy for her to be chucked out or should she have to prove that she is blind and the cause of her blindness?

I agree with no mask no entry to shops. And the shops do their best to help people with a valid reason for not being able to wear a mask. Priority delivery slots, click and collect and so on. I don't think its a big ask when people aren't even allowed to see relatives in hospital.

@Lexilooo

All those backing Sainsbury's and the police, how would you feel if she was chucked out for taking her dog into the store despite a no dogs rule? What if she explained she was blind and the dog was a guide dog? Still happy for her to be chucked out or should she have to prove that she is blind and the cause of her blindness?

Working dogs will be wearing a harness which will clearly identify them as such. You can’t just walk into a shop with any dog and proclaim it to be a guide dog!

@sirzy in my example I said "the dog was a guide dog" not "she proclaimed it a guide dog". Assume it was in a guide dog's harness or perhaps a jacket that says assistance dog and she has another disability.

Should she be thrown out for bringing an assistance dog with her when there is a no dogs rule?

Why would she be? Your example makes no sense! If someone has a guide dog then they have gone through vigorous processes to be paired with the dog, hardly comparable to someone proclaiming they can’t wear a mask!

[quote Lexilooo]@sirzy in my example I said "the dog was a guide dog" not "she proclaimed it a guide dog". Assume it was in a guide dog's harness or perhaps a jacket that says assistance dog and she has another disability.

Should she be thrown out for bringing an assistance dog with her when there is a no dogs rule? [/quote]
Have there been any cases of that?

Actually it's a good example Lexiloo as I'm pretty sure there is a legal exemption for assistance dogs to enter shops.

But you can't self identify your pet poodle as an assistance dog.

[quote Lexilooo]@sirzy in my example I said "the dog was a guide dog" not "she proclaimed it a guide dog". Assume it was in a guide dog's harness or perhaps a jacket that says assistance dog and she has another disability.

Should she be thrown out for bringing an assistance dog with her when there is a no dogs rule? [/quote]
Usually it is fairly obvious that someone is blind.
Unfortunately it's not so obvious when someone is an entitled twat that doesn't have any consideration for others.

Right so only people with obvious disabilities should get the adjustments they require to lead a normal life?

Wow!