Woman thrown out of Sainsbury's for not wearing a mask.

[Viviennemary]

When asked why she wasn't wearing one she told the police they were not allowed to challenge her or ask about her disability. (wrong apparently). She said she'd be taking them to court. Police have criticised ministers for giving conflicting advice. I think it's time this was cleared up. It's far too vague. So seems like people do need some proof of the reasons they can't wear a mask.

Nobody is leading a normal life just now. Thats the whole point. Sigh. Adjustments hsvd to be made by everybody.

Was in one of the small local Tescos the other day, we live next door (this is relevant). Everyone standing quietly in the queue, I was behind a lady who wasn't wearing a mask. Fine, no problem.

An elderly man took it upon himself to challenge her (not his place, but whatever) and she screamed at him that she had a lung condition and masks stopped her air flow. Justified excuse. Staff intervened, wearily, and asked him to pipe down.

She went up to the counter, paid for her shopping, and bought 40 cigarettes. I was paying next to her and thought 'na, surely not.' Left at the same time and bugger me, she stands on the pavement and lights up. Was drizzling with rain, and she walked at full pelt in front of me, all the way past my house. I'm no doctor (and I'm a smoker) but I'm going to put it out there that someone with reduced lung capacity would struggle with an uphill brisk walk, whilst smoking.

Now, I am fully in agreement that justified exemptions are totally fair. And that not all exemptions are things that can be medically diagnosed easily (anxiety etc). But there are a LOT of people taking the piss. I think shops are in a really tough spot and this is one of those things that we unfortunately need to trust the public to police themselves, and put our faith in the majority of people doing the right thing

And as far as I know guide dogs are not picking up and examining items in the shop and then putting them back, nor are they breathing over other people (unless they are an enormous Great Dane).

If you don’t like dogs/allergic you can swiftly move out of their path. A maskless person heading towards you or standing right behind you in the queue - not so much.

@Lexilooo

Right so only people with obvious disabilities should get the adjustments they require to lead a normal life?

Wow!

No, and there is adjustment there for those who have invisible disabilities but they can’t expect to not have to explain to staff in the venue they are going to.

Just the same as if I am taking DS somewhere and need adjustment for his needs or wokld like to use free carer access then I expect to have to explain and/or show evidence.

The issue here has come because some self centred gits don’t want to wear masks so are at best exaggerating their conditions at worse making them up. This is creating much bigger issues for the small minority who genuinely do have reason they can’t wear one.

Even if it is discrimination under a protected characteristic (such as a genuine disability) Sainsbury's have a defence if their discrimination is proportionate to pursuing a legitimate aim (such as the health and safety of staff and guests). Discrimination law is a powerful tool to protect vulnerable people but it isn't quite the slam dunk that it now appears people think it to be. There are plenty of ways justifying discrimination so that there is no legal recourse against a business which is discriminating.

All those backing Sainsbury's and the police, how would you feel if she was chucked out for taking her dog into the store despite a no dogs rule? What if she explained she was blind and the dog was a guide dog? Still happy for her to be chucked out or should she have to prove that she is blind and the cause of her blindness? it’s pretty obvious that I am blind even when I’m not using a guide dog. Interestingly, there is an increasing number of people who have decided to take it upon themselves to train their own assistance dogs and to proclaim they are genuine assistance dogs, buddy dog/companion dog autism awareness dog and even guide dogs, which have led to some establishments being less forthcoming when it comes to accepting guide dogs.

It’s very simple, if you have a legitimate assistance dog that dog can be registered as an assistance dog and you can be sent an assistance dog ID card to present should you be asked to do so.

A guide dog is pretty obvious as not only is the dog wearing a harness and a “guide dog” flash on its lead, but the owner is usually fairly obviously blind.

Incidentally, guide dog puppies in training do not have the legal right to enter shops, but the vast majority of shops will allow them entry on the basis it teaches them the correct skills to be able to enter when they are fully trained and matched.

Similarly many establishments will allow retired guide dogs in, however, I have a retired guide dog and it would never occur to me to take him into a shop. And I especially wouldn’t take him in a taxi because guide dog owners find it hard enough to not be refused by taxi drivers anyway with at least 50% of guide dog owners being refused by a taxi every year, and taxi refusal is in fact a criminal offence.

Added to which, I am quite happy to prove my blindness, tbh it’s pretty bloody obvious and I would question the eyesight (or lack theirof) of anyone who couldn’t see it.

But now anyone can merrily walk into a shop say “oh, I’m exempt,” and nobody is allowed to question them.

All those backing Sainsbury's and the police, how would you feel if she was chucked out for taking her dog into the store despite a no dogs rule? What if she explained she was blind and the dog was a guide dog? Still happy for her to be chucked out or should she have to prove that she is blind and the cause of her blindness?

Pretty obvious whether she's blind or not, and whether the dog is a guide dog or not.
This is the equivalent of a woman walking into the shop with an untrained yorkie and when challenged pretends to be blind and says the dog is a guide dog. And people here still start screeching about disability discrimination!¬

Also, does it really achieve anything by screaming and shouting at shop staff?

I have been refused in restaurants before because of my guide dog. On most occasions I have explained and they have allowed me in, but on the one occasion they didn’t I just walked out and went somewhere else. After all, if they’re that difficult you’re not going to be eating there tonight are you? So I left, went somewhere else, and then put a very honest review about the place on tripadvisor the next day. Which was getting likes or whatever they are 3 years later... And I never went back.

AlternativePerspective The saying, "Revenge is a dish best served cold" sounds appropriate. I hope you had a nice meal, I mean the real one in the other restaurant not the cold one.

We used to look after a trainee guide dog and one of the things we had to do was take him into bars and restaurants. We got physically pushed out of one restaurant with the owner saying “I know it’s the law, I don’t care, you’re not coming in here.” So we went to one further down the road, where they went out of their way to find us a nice table with sofas, so that we had plenty of space, brought the dog some water, and generally couldn’t have been nicer. We never went back to the first place, even when we were dogless.

I’d rather meet a pack of slathering Rottweilers rampaging towards the Sainsbury’s meat counter than one maskless person...

@OwMyNeck That actually happened to a blind woman TWICE in the SAME day, in the first lockdown. It was on BBC2 last night on a programme called Targeted The Truth About Disability Hate Crime.

@Al1langdownthecleghole

But you can't self identify your pet poodle as an assistance dog

My life means I live by myself with dd. Who is going to shop for me bend? Shall we just stay at home and starve instead? Shame on anyone who calls people names for being unable to wear a mask.

If it came to it, supermarkets do food delivery. As do Amazon. Uber Eats - Many shops are now listed on there. Those are a few I know of, there must be many more.

There are people who can't wear masks but just like everything else, it needs regulating. Especially as a matter of life and death. We have one of the highest Covid rates in the world which is no small matter, and lucky to be here where at least deliveries and assistance are available.

For some of us statistics and numbers have turned to names of people who've died. It's natural that mask-less makes people wary and actually it's about the safety of those not wearing masks too, just as much as anyone else

Just a wee bit of info from www.gov.uk to remind those who are accusing the 'non maskers' of having blood on thier hands that the effectiveness of facemasks is small. Most people seem to be forgetting that masks are not some magical weapon, I cannot understand why people get so worked up about this. I read these posts and imagine what the world could be if people cared as much about child abuse etc.

Anyway here goes...
'It is important to know that the evidence of the benefit of using a face covering to protect others is weak and the effect is likely to be small, therefore face coverings are not a replacement for the other ways of managing risk, including minimising time spent in contact, using fixed teams and partnering for close-up work, and increasing hand and surface washing.'

I never thought I'd see the UK go so bloody mental.
Can't people just be reasonable and understand that some people are unable to wear one and do not deserve to be questioned. Others do not agree for other reasons, I won't be brushing up near you in Asda, so don't worry. You're far more likely to get covid from your spouse than some bare faced stranger in a supermarket.
World has gone mad, absolutely fucking mad.

Most people seem to be forgetting that masks are not some magical weapon

I'd say most know
that, but see it as a form of at least some protection.

In these times I don't think your argument would hold up anywhere really. We're in the midst of a Pandemic and just have to do our best for all our sakes.

If most people do know this, then why the scepticism when someone chooses not to wear a mask or more importantly cannot wear a mask. If most people knew this then this thread would not exist.
I'd be free to take my child to the shops and for them to see my face whilst doing so, a small and important liberty in my opinion. I am no covid denier and I am very much for the collective good but I will not accept that facemasks are a valuable tool until I am provided real evidence to suggest so. They should be optional and we should maintain social distancing where appropriate.
They should not be enforced, when we know that the effects are minimal.

You only need to see people adjusting masks if anyone in another aisle coughs, or pulling them tighter when passing on walks, to know that many people are wearing them as some sort of magical shield against COVID. The ‘I’m wearing it to protect you’ line doesn’t seem to be more than a parroted repetition with little actual belief in the statement.

That’s why I worry that masks may do more harm than good. They encourage a false sense of personal security whilst creating a perfect warm and moist environment for pathogens to grow, and we put them tight next to easy entry points for pathogens (mouth, nose, eyes). Hand washing and social awareness get forgotten.

The other day a friend went down with a cold, but was confused as they had worn a mask the whole time they were out 🤔

For every one person maintaining perfect mask hygiene there must be 50 who are increasing their risk rather than reducing it.

It’s a crazy world but at least it allows visible virtue signaling and compliance 😷

@Worldgonecrazy

They encourage a false sense of personal security whilst creating a perfect warm and moist environment for pathogens to grow

This is an excuse for those who don't want to wear them

A lot of people wash them every single day after use (I certainly do) and don't touch them at all while out.

In America people can "self-identify" any pet as an emotional support pet, which has been massively abused and led to people showing up in shops and airports with everything from hamsters, snakes, spiders, even ponies.

It's a difficult area, but unfortunately letting people self-declare without any kind of qualifying process is open to abuse. It's hard to find a line between protecting the system from abuse, and ensuring those protections don't create additional barriers for actual disabled people.

In these times I don't think your argument would hold up anywhere really. We're in the midst of a Pandemic and just have to do our best for all our sakes.

The 'argument' that even the government who mandated these stupid things says that they do virtually nothing?

The vitriol for those who do not/cannot wear them is far, far out of proportion to the potential benefits of them.

I think that plenty of people are actually stupid enough to believe that a bit of cloth will make a significant difference.
For the rest, it's definitely a moral outrage that's driving them. that people simply aren't trying hard enough - even though the effect is infinitesimal if anything, and the harms to society of the mask mandate are so large - you're a bad person if you don't try.

Madness. Moral panic, Salem witch hunt style, nasty, bitter, madness.

@Paapa

In these times I don't think your argument would hold up anywhere really. We're in the midst of a Pandemic and just have to do our best for all our sakes.

The 'argument' that even the government who mandated these stupid things says that they do virtually nothing?

The vitriol for those who do not/cannot wear them is far, far out of proportion to the potential benefits of them.

I think that plenty of people are actually stupid enough to believe that a bit of cloth will make a significant difference.
For the rest, it's definitely a moral outrage that's driving them. that people simply aren't trying hard enough - even though the effect is infinitesimal if anything, and the harms to society of the mask mandate are so large - you're a bad person if you don't try.

Madness. Moral panic, Salem witch hunt style, nasty, bitter, madness.

One would almost think this disease is made up and it’s hardly spreading at all and hardly anyone is contracting it....oh wait...

Maybe every little DOES help.

The Norwegian government calculated that if 200 000 people wore masks for one entire week, maybe one infection could be prevented.

I'm pretty sure that most people here would think that this number makes it worth the distress, skin infections, bacterial infections, child development and other psychological problems, the danger of masks becoming a cultural norm mandated every winter, the danger of breathing fabric fibres into the lungs, the increased danger of falls in the elderly, and so many other things.

People's lack of understanding of risk and proportion has fair ruined the world.