Woman thrown out of Sainsbury's for not wearing a mask.

[Viviennemary]

When asked why she wasn't wearing one she told the police they were not allowed to challenge her or ask about her disability. (wrong apparently). She said she'd be taking them to court. Police have criticised ministers for giving conflicting advice. I think it's time this was cleared up. It's far too vague. So seems like people do need some proof of the reasons they can't wear a mask.

I'm not able to wear a mask, a shield or a lanyard due to PTSD. I simply can't have anything touching my neck or face. Wasn't a huge problem before the pandemic, I just didn't wear scarves or necklaces, and luckily don't need glasses. I've been challenged twice when shopping. The first was pleasant and I felt comfortable saying I couldn't wear one, the second was incredibly rude, and I had panic attacks for 2 days after. I had 6 counselling sessions through work 8 years ago for the trauma I went through, and never felt the need to engage my GP. How exactly am I meant to "prove" my exemption with a GP letter? I could have a panic attack at the door, if the staff would like? Although, I wouldn't be able to do my shopping then so it kind of defeats the point.

I'm so so angry at anti-maskers who have made it so I'm terrified of doing my shopping. I already go very late at night, religiously keep 2 metres away minimum, which often means waiting bloody ages while the masked couple pull off their face coverings and touch every item to decide what soup they should buy that week, or jumping back when people cannot wait the 3 seconds it takes me to get the item I need. I sanitise my hands constantly while walking through the store, and use self-service so I rarely have to talk. I also get weekly Covid tests through work, so am fairly confident I'm not spreading anything.

I understand everyone is struggling, so maybe that's a reason not to make life harder for others who are doing their best, by assuming they're arseholes, dicks or any of the other lovely insults thrown in this thread.

[quote MilkTwoSugarsThanks]@NikeDeLaSwoosh

The woman in the video promotes herself as an anti-masker. It doesn't take a massive leap to come the conclusion, based on the balance of probabilities, that she does not has any disability.[/quote]

I'm Not sure the two are mutually exclusive. You could have a disability and also be a massive conspiracy theorist covid denier.

Having a disability doesn't make you immune to believing nonsense you read on the internet.

@JinglingHellsBells Autism is a disability. Sensory processing disorder is a disability. Trigeminal neuralgia is a disability. All medical disabilities. Diagnosed by doctors. A medical professional has agreed with me that I cannot wear a mask. Many people have said this, you appear to be picking and choosing what you are reading even when you are tagged in a post.

Do people not consider those who are clinically vulnerable to have disabilities and the rights that go with them?

Also, some people are conflating face covering law with equality act.

If putting on a face mask gives someone panic attacks, that will make them exempt from wearing it but it doesn't necessarily mean they have W disability covered by the Equality Act.

@Al1langdownthecleghole

Do people not consider those who are clinically vulnerable to have disabilities and the rights that go with them?

Clearly not it seems.

The video I saw the police officer was being quite rude and sarcastic. It didn't calm the situation at all but then that's the nature of some police in this country unfortunately.

I'd love to see these cantankerous people go abroad and see where their attitude gets them with the police there in some other countries.

@Gwenhwyfar

"This creates a fundamentally different mindset ingrained over centuries. In a world of globalisation these sorts of things are often dismissed but they are there. I suspect this is one of the fundamental reasons behind Brexit."

Rubbish.
The reasons behind Brexit was scepticism about immigration and wanting to reclaim sovereignty.
Nothing to do with policing.

"People will comply more in civil law countries to restrictions to freedom generally which do not directly contravene their positive rights."

I disagree with this too. Where I am, people are generally LESS respectful of rules than in the UK. The difference happens when there is enforcement. If you know you can get a hefty fine or be denied access to the shop if you don't wear the mask, then you'll wear it.

Well the first reason was why I voted for Brexit, I doubt I was alone I’m sorry it doesn’t fit your narrative of a bunch of xenophobes.

I think the second point we agree on but phrased differently

I’m cev and I really don’t consider myself disabled. I am likely to have a crap outcome if I contract the virus. That’s what cev is. Not a new category of disabled.

@Ihatefish

I would love to know how many people on here that are saying anyone can wear a mask or if not stay at home have done any of the following

1. Post on social media anything suggesting support for people suffering from mental illness

1. Put anything on social media decrying people being put at a disadvantage about things out of their control eg race/gender etc

1. Would be horrified if they turned up at a supermarket stating no Muslims

1. Have attended diversity events at work and become some sort of Allie.

No I don't post on social media and see them as empty gestures. Empty vessels and all that.

1. See 1.

1. Of course I would be horrified but fail to see the connection you are making to people wandering around maskless spreading Covid? Are you suggesting that Muslims are dangerous

1. I have no idea who Allie is or why I would want to become her, is that like a Karen? But no I am self employed and have always been.

@JinglingHellsBells Since you have either not read or deliberately ignored my previous reply to you, I shall reiterate: trigeminal neuralgia is a real, pukka, legitimate, non-made up, non-pisstaking medical disorder that would exempt the sufferer from wearing a mask. Or a visor.

If this justification is insufficient for you, perhaps you would like to take it up with DP’s Harley Street consultant?

@JakeChambers

I'm not able to wear a mask, a shield or a lanyard due to PTSD. I simply can't have anything touching my neck or face. Wasn't a huge problem before the pandemic, I just didn't wear scarves or necklaces, and luckily don't need glasses. I've been challenged twice when shopping. The first was pleasant and I felt comfortable saying I couldn't wear one, the second was incredibly rude, and I had panic attacks for 2 days after. I had 6 counselling sessions through work 8 years ago for the trauma I went through, and never felt the need to engage my GP. How exactly am I meant to "prove" my exemption with a GP letter? I could have a panic attack at the door, if the staff would like? Although, I wouldn't be able to do my shopping then so it kind of defeats the point.

I'm so so angry at anti-maskers who have made it so I'm terrified of doing my shopping. I already go very late at night, religiously keep 2 metres away minimum, which often means waiting bloody ages while the masked couple pull off their face coverings and touch every item to decide what soup they should buy that week, or jumping back when people cannot wait the 3 seconds it takes me to get the item I need. I sanitise my hands constantly while walking through the store, and use self-service so I rarely have to talk. I also get weekly Covid tests through work, so am fairly confident I'm not spreading anything.

I understand everyone is struggling, so maybe that's a reason not to make life harder for others who are doing their best, by assuming they're arseholes, dicks or any of the other lovely insults thrown in this thread.

@JakeChambers great post. Unfortunately people are willing to put hashtags on social media about mental health but unwilling to deal with the consequences.

What this pandemic has unfortunately shown to me is that there are still large amounts of the population that think mental health is a weakness, that it’s a choice of just pulling your socks up. Some people think it’s ok to exclude people with poor mental health from society.

I’m so sorry you’re struggling and then having to deal with the idiots on top. They have no concept how lucky they are.

I too suffer from ptsd and whilst I can now after 10 year of therapy just about manage a mask for 20 min I’ve had to dump the trolley a few times. I really thought that people cared about mental health and understood the hell or were at least sympathetic. What this pandemic has shown me is that the vast majority think I’m a burden on society, if I can’t act like everyone else I should shut myself away, no one is willing to make any allowances for the traumas in adult and childhood I suffered because I’m just not trying hard enough. Quite frankly with people surrounding me like that what’s the fucking point in going on?

My ds is except due to autism.

He wears a lanyard and will say he's autistic if asked. We also carry a photo of his diagnosis letter and also a photo of his blue badge (for his physical disability).

I think it's important for him not to be embarrassed about his disability if feel it's something he has to hide. His autism isn't something to be embarrassed about.

Although I won't let him in a shop atm as this new strain is so transmissible! From sept to December he just told them.

@BentBastard

Also, some people are conflating face covering law with equality act.

If putting on a face mask gives someone panic attacks, that will make them exempt from wearing it but it doesn't necessarily mean they have W disability covered by the Equality Act.

Well, I’d think that if they didn’t qualify for PTSD or other disorders that have panic attacks as a symptom, they’d definitely be diagnosed with Panic Disorder, which is a recognised disability.

to people wandering around maskless spreading Covid?

A maskless person can only spread Covid if you get closer than 2m to them. So if Covid is increasing due to the maskless, it’s not because they’re not wearing a mask, but because others are not social distancing. Masks were only brought in later in the pandemic to be a sort of final defence in confined areas a where social distancing may not be possible 100% of the time.

@BentBastard

Also, some people are conflating face covering law with equality act.

If putting on a face mask gives someone panic attacks, that will make them exempt from wearing it but it doesn't necessarily mean they have W disability covered by the Equality Act.

I was thinking about this the other night.

The EA defines disability as a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on a person's ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities.

Mental health issues like panic attacks are included in the meaning of impairment, there is no requirement for a formal diagnosis. Being unable to enter shops or other public places, or use public transport is definitely a substantial adverse effect. The statutory guidance says that the adverse effect is long term if it has lasted for 12 months or is likely to last for 12 months. The first face covering law came in on 15 June, making them mandatory on public transport. Do we think there will still be face covering laws on 15 June 2021? I think that's extremely likely.

So it's entirely possible that someone who is unable to wear a mask because of panic attacks, but who is otherwise fine, could be protected under the EA. They have effectively been disabled by the regs. It's an amazingly clear example of the social model of disability.

@LangClegsInSpace

The law says that unless you are exempt you must wear a mask, not only in shops, but also in pretty much all indoor public spaces (when they reopen), on all public transport and in taxis.

When the mask law came in, Hancock said it would be there 'for the forseeable future'.

Some people seem to think it's fine to exclude some disabled people from all indoor public life and remove their means of getting to work, appointments etc., for the forseeable future, simply because they are unable to wear a mask.

It's not fine, it's completely disproportionate.

Most of this is disproportionate.

The already disadvantaged (for whatever reason) have been forced to make sacrifices but god forbid someone could be asked for some proof that it's acceptable for them to increase their risk of infecting others.

I think it should become law to show proof of exemption.

I’m in Central Europe. We have to wear masks all the time here, in the streets, everywhere. If you’re not wearing a mask, you won’t be allowed on public transport or into shops. They take your temperature every time you go into a shop. There is pretty much full compliance with mask wearing. The number of cases and deaths have plummeted. Shops have remained open, but restaurants can only open if they have a terrace (so not indoors).

@MilkTwoSugarsThanks - Clearly my post was addressing those who think there just shouldn't be any exemptions in the first place. Masks would have to work amazingly brilliantly well for that to be proportionate and they just don't. There is some weak evidence that they may help a bit in some circumstances, that's all.

But surely for discrimination to be successfully claimed, an individual would have to argue that a shop did not make ‘reasonable’ adjustments for them? That raises the question as to whether it is ‘reasonable’ for an individual to potentially put the wider public at risk by not wearing a mask-I’m not saying I agree with either stance but just pondering the law and whether this has been tested in court yet?

I'm so sorry you're struggling too @ihatefish. It's a fear response others have and I, as I'm sure you, completely understand that. Maybe better than others. I am frustrated at the lack of compassion shown to those of us who are genuinely exempt, usually hidden in the guise of them being just so responsible and caring. Implying I'm not because I can't overcome my issues magically because covid has popped into being.

Youre doing your best and your value isn't defined by your mental health. Keep doing your best and keep safe.

@MrsSchadenfreude

I’m in Central Europe. We have to wear masks all the time here, in the streets, everywhere. If you’re not wearing a mask, you won’t be allowed on public transport or into shops. They take your temperature every time you go into a shop. There is pretty much full compliance with mask wearing. The number of cases and deaths have plummeted. Shops have remained open, but restaurants can only open if they have a terrace (so not indoors).

And how many people are stuck inside unable to live their lives mental health in a downwards spiral? Guess they don’t matter, yes let’s remove people with disabilities from life shall we because that worked out really well last time!

Just seen the footage and her Twitter page

How dare she

And to the pp who said the police were rude. I thought they were extremely restrained. She was spoiling for a fight

And to the pps with their reference to stasi and third Reich - you're the ones that should be ashamed

@Cloudhopping

But surely for discrimination to be successfully claimed, an individual would have to argue that a shop did not make ‘reasonable’ adjustments for them? That raises the question as to whether it is ‘reasonable’ for an individual to potentially put the wider public at risk by not wearing a mask-I’m not saying I agree with either stance but just pondering the law and whether this has been tested in court yet?

It raises the question of why the business has not used the very obvious reasonable adjustment that the government has already set out in law and guidance - i.e. the exemptions.

(Someone wouldn't have to make an argument based on reasonable adjustments, they could just go for indirect discrimination. But, as the purpose of reasonable adjustments is to prevent unlawful indirect discrimination, and as they would have no problem showing the business had failed in their duty, it would make their case stronger.)

People claiming they're exempt, yet arbitrarily taking it upon themselves to decide that GP's are too busy, and there shouldn't be means via which a short, simple exemption note available from GP.

Blue Badge holders for example have to get and provide info in order to obtain badge for display. Why should anyone else get away with not providing supporting info for a medical condition proving exemption? We are in a pandemic it's not a game.

Medical info isn't on Blue Badge is it, similarly doesn't have to be on exemption note. It's just visible evidence that you are exempt.

I suspect some are happy with Government useless, muddled guidelines on this as they just want to be awkward.

I'm glad that silly entitled woman was thrown out of Sainsburys today. Wonder if she's a member of that big 'Save Our Rights' group on FB talking about 'face nappy wearers' and 'muzzles', going around upsetting and hassling shop staff and posting up exploits for group props, crowing that they made a female staff member cry?

No doubt there'll be some furore about it, which I hope then leads to exemption notes being required. That would be far safer for everybody.