Lisa Montgomery executed

[PegasusReturns]

Lisa Montgomery was executed yesterday - I don’t know how this amounts to justice in 2021. What an appalling tragedy her life and death was.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55642177

I genuinely do get this, but as so often there's a question of balance and when personal convictions should be allowed to override legislation

interesting view in a time when more and more people are running headlong into legislation that requires them to accept certain beliefs - for example about sex and gender.

Brain damaged or not if a dog is rabid or dangerous you put it down. I know we don't have the death penalty here but other countries seem it acceptable so we should leave it to them.

@CleverCatty

They seem untouchable. Even involving my MP and making more than one official complaint for me no where.

@Jaypreen

Their appetite for judicial killing is hardly the fault of any president.

Really?

From the DM link:

The Trump administration has now executed more federal inmates than any other president since Franklin Roosevelt carried out 16 executions in the late 1930s and early 1940s

Trump has overseen a full-throttle resumption of federal executions this year after a 17-year pause, carrying out 10 executions even as backing for capital punishment waned.

The Trump administration has three more executions scheduled ahead of him leaving the White House.

From the BBC:

Five executions are scheduled before President-elect Joe Biden's 20 January inauguration - breaking with an 130-year-old precedent of pausing executions amid a presidential transition.

And if all five take place, Mr Trump will be the country's most prolific execution president in more than a century, overseeing the executions of 13 death row inmates since July of this year.

This is really outside the norm, in a pretty extreme way," said Ngozi Ndulue, director of research at the non-partisan Death Penalty Information Center.

Since the federal death penalty was reinstated by the US Supreme Court in 1988, executions carried out by the national or federal government in the US have remained rare.

Before Mr Trump took office, only three federal executions had taken place in this period.

All were carried out under Republican President George W Bush.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55236260

I would suspect that the chances of the woman being released from secure accommodation would be very slim and the chances of her not reoffending slimmer still. Of course, I'm happy to be corrected on that if anyone has knowledge in that field but if I'm right, what would be the point of incarcerating her for life?

Who would it benefit? Not the adult victim. Not the child victim. Not the victims' family. Not the taxpayer. Not even the murderer herself. It might, at a push, salve some liberal consciences, but it's not they who have to live with the outcome, is it?

Death was probably/arguably kinder than a life in an institution. A lethal injection is without doubt a kinder way to die as opposed to bleeding to death having had your baby cut out of your womb. I can't find sympathy with the murderer in the light of that.

But that was the basis for the trial to go ahead, she was deemed to have culpability after the medical assessments. It’s not something I made up. It’s not my assertion, it’s the doctors who assessed her views.

Most likely they had a prosecution psychiatrist (or two) who concluded that she was legally competent, and a defense one who concluded that she was not. It comes down to the judge ruling on it, and judges do often have an incentive to lean towards "competent" and can be as ill-equipped to make this delicate judgement as any member of the public. Especially since the principal qualification to be a judge is often "has shilled for or donated to a political party".

@Respectabitch

But that was the basis for the trial to go ahead, she was deemed to have culpability after the medical assessments. It’s not something I made up. It’s not my assertion, it’s the doctors who assessed her views.

Most likely they had a prosecution psychiatrist (or two) who concluded that she was legally competent, and a defense one who concluded that she was not. It comes down to the judge ruling on it, and judges do often have an incentive to lean towards "competent" and can be as ill-equipped to make this delicate judgement as any member of the public. Especially since the principal qualification to be a judge is often "has shilled for or donated to a political party".

It’s the judge who orders the assessment from an independent panel of medical professionals.

[quote Roussette]Not idiotic at all.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/15/trump-administration-us-death-penalty-executions[/quote]
But what the article fails to relate is that Obama suspended federal executions in 2014 after an execution in Oklahoma was botched causing Clayton Lockett to die writhing in agony.
deathpenaltyinfo.org/news/department-of-justice-review-of-state-death-penalty-protocols-underway
Obama directed the Justice Department to do a review of death penalty in practice both federal and state. Many states followed suit, also suspending executions.

This review was not completed until 2020. And the results are the US Justice Department’s.

At that point, there was a backlog of death row inmates who would have been executed the past 6yrs. So of course, there has now been a surge in executions. Trump hasn’t done anything to stop it, but similarly this isn’t really his doing either.

But what the article fails to relate is that Obama suspended federal executions in 2014 after an execution in Oklahoma was botched causing Clayton Lockett to die writhing in agony.

Because nowhere in the world that was able to make the drugs needed was willing to supply them - UK included.

Or at least that is what we were told. I would be mildly surprised to discover that Brave New Brexit Britain hadn't set itself up as executioners assistant to the world. World beating drugs for world beating executions.

They could have done it quicker with an ax

@Respectabitch

But that was the basis for the trial to go ahead, she was deemed to have culpability after the medical assessments. It’s not something I made up. It’s not my assertion, it’s the doctors who assessed her views.

Most likely they had a prosecution psychiatrist (or two) who concluded that she was legally competent, and a defense one who concluded that she was not. It comes down to the judge ruling on it, and judges do often have an incentive to lean towards "competent" and can be as ill-equipped to make this delicate judgement as any member of the public. Especially since the principal qualification to be a judge is often "has shilled for or donated to a political party".

Yep.

Montgomery was diagnosed by the defence psychiatrists as suffering from depression, borderline personality disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, and pseudocyesis (delusion of being pregnant).

The prosecution psychiatric team agreed that she suffered from depression, borderline personality disorder, and post-traumatic stress disorder but did not diagnose her as suffering from pseudocyesis.

Her psychiatrist at the CCA (Corrections Corporation of America’s) diagnosed her as suffering from “delusional cycling psychosis”.

The prosecution psychiatrists claimed: “she did not suffer from any mental disease or defect that affected her ability to appreciate the nature and quality of wrongfulness of her acts.“

Further they testified that she was “malingering” and that her mother had claimed she was a “willing participant” in her sexual abuse. (Their views were apparently based in part on interviews with Montgomery’s mother and ex husband.)

Montgomery’s current defence team contend that ”at the time of her crime, she was psychotic and out of touch with reality. That opinion is supported by 41 current and former lawyers as well as human rights groups like the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights.”

Montgomery's lawyer, Ms Henry, said her original legal defence was woefully inadequate, and presented few of the details about her abuse, trauma and mental illness.

Lisa Montgomery's current legal team has conducted some 450 interviews with family members, friends, case workers, doctors and social workers. Stitched together, they form a tapestry of family dysfunction, abuse, neglect, professional negligence, substance abuse and untreated mental illness.

Her mental illnesses include: ”bipolar disorder, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, dissociative disorder and traumatic brain injury.”

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55642177

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55587260

@DGRossetti

But what the article fails to relate is that Obama suspended federal executions in 2014 after an execution in Oklahoma was botched causing Clayton Lockett to die writhing in agony.

Because nowhere in the world that was able to make the drugs needed was willing to supply them - UK included.

Or at least that is what we were told. I would be mildly surprised to discover that Brave New Brexit Britain hadn't set itself up as executioners assistant to the world. World beating drugs for world beating executions.

They could have done it quicker with an ax

Yes that is true, some states stopped because Obama’s review and others stopped because the companies selling lethal injection supplies refused to sell to the states.

But interestingly even though the reports say federal executions were suspended and in some states, a lot of executions seem to still have gone forward. And even with a recent surge, the total number of US executions under Trump is much lower than his three presidential predecessors.

According to the Death Penalty Information Center’s Execution Database:
Clinton 1st term from 1993-1996: 170
Clinton 2nd term from 1997-2000: 325
Bush Jr 1st term from 2001-2004: 261
Bush Jr 2nd term from 2005-2008: 192
Obama’s 1st term from 2009-2012: 184
Obama’s 2nd term from 2013-2016: 122
Trump’s term from 2017-Jan 2021: 88

deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions/execution-database

The thing is her defense team also tried to mount a defense saying she didn’t do it, her brother did. When he clearly didn’t. Their aim remember is to get her off, or reduced sentance. The prosecutions aim is to show guilt and culpability beyond reasonable doubt. You don’t prove someone is innocent, you prove they are guilty, beyond reasonable doubt,

And they did. The jury came to a relatively quick decision. She was guilty and culpable. The defense failed to convince the judge, she was not culpable.

And in the sixteen years since she drove nearly two hundred miles to kill this woman, under the false identity she’d created months previously to befriend her, , she was then held in a federal prison. Her lawyers no matter how hard they tried, couldn’t prove she was even ill enough to be moved to a mental institute. No incidents in prison to prove how mentally Ill she was. Nothing. Nada. 16 years they had, they simply couldn’t prove it enough for anyone to take it seriously.

What she did was awful, but what has been done to Lisa in no way makes things right. Some serious questions need to be answered. Why on earth were details of her abuse not revealed in court? Awful.

To think Trump rushed this through just because he could makes it even worse. I seriously hope a large dose of karma is headed his way.

I am saddened though that she was denied a prayer before her death

I hadn't heard that. That's dreadful.

The U.S has a grubby history of executing young people (god - have you seen the old video of that 1 year old boy being electrocuted?) and people with learning disabilities and mental health issues.

Typo here, surely? As far as I am aware the youngest person executed was 10/11. Still horrific enough - still a child.

My Dad is actually no less intelligent since he incurred brain damage, but his boundaries, his emotional control, his judgement, understanding and his personality have all changed

This - there can be intelligence - or possibly cunning, but no moral awareness

There‘s a difference between federal and state executions.

Most executions are carried out by state governments, via state courts, the states having differing procedures.

Federal executions go through federal courts and are much rarer.

16 years they had, they simply couldn’t prove it enough for anyone to take it seriously.

I think it's quite sweet, the level of naive faith in the US justice system that assumes the reason they would not be taken seriously is because there was insufficient evidence to support their argument.

US Women executed
Clinton 1st term from 1993-1996: 0
Clinton 2nd term from 1997-2000: 4
Bush Jr 1st term from 2001-2004: 5
Bush Jr 2nd term from 2005-2008: 1
Obama’s 1st term from 2009-2012: 1
Obama’s 2nd term from 2013-2016: 4
Trump’s term from 2017-Jan 2021: 1 (Lisa Montgomery)

@TeenyTinyDustinHoffman

It is worrying, the number of people on here, who seem unable to comprehend that others can feel simultaneously sympathetic towards Bobbie Jo Stinnett and towards a woman who was continuously raped and abused from the age of 3. Or, indeed, the number of people who think that "not killing the mentally ill" is tantamount to awarding people sainthood or letting criminals off entirely. Because this is either piss poor reading comprehension or a staggering lack of compassion. Or both. No matter what Lisa Montgomery did, nothing excuses dismissing that childhood as a "sob story". That was a truly disgusting thing to say.

This ^

The thing is her defense team also tried to mount a defense saying she didn’t do it, her brother did. When he clearly didn’t

Which simply shows how poor her defence team were.

Interesting to see those numbers in your last post, PlanDeRaccordement
I've seen so many articles which claim the Trump administration has "executed the most" - there's a particularly glaring headline below - and while I realise they've cherry-picked the figures to refer to federal rather than state executions, I expect that's a distinction many won't make

www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-20/donald-trump-leaves-office-with-most-executions-in-100-years/12986302

I think because the killing was planned and premeditated over a long period, it was not seen as being due to acute mental illness. I have just read that the brother of Zeb Stinnett, Ace, has commented that family members were present at the execution and that it has brought closure to Victoria Jo (Bobbie Jo's baby) and the rest of the Stinnett/Harper family.

It will be hard for Lisa's 4 kids who apparently all kept in contact with her. I noticed that more than one of them have changed changed social media profiles to being 'against the death penalty'. Lisa's ex husband, the kids father, Carl Boman has recently been charged with child sexual abuse. How awful for Lisa's children.

And in the sixteen years since she drove nearly two hundred miles to kill this woman, under the false identity she’d created months previously to befriend her, , she was then held in a federal prison. Her lawyers no matter how hard they tried, couldn’t prove she was even ill enough to be moved to a mental institute. No incidents in prison to prove how mentally Ill she was. Nothing. Nada. 16 years they had, they simply couldn’t prove it enough for anyone to take it seriously.

I summarised the defence and prosecution psychiatric team diagnoses above. And the diagnosis from the prison psychiatrist (CCA) which was “delusional cycling psychosis”.

Prosecution and defence psychiatric assessments were heard, the judge decided to go with the team who described her as “malingering“ and who quoted her mother’s belief that she was a “willing” partner in her sexual abuse.

@Puzzledandpissedoff
Yes. I’ve been wide eyed using that database I linked to. It only tracks from 1973 to today, but of the 1,530 US executions, only 14 have been federal executions. Arguing over 14 executions since 1973 seems to me now to be ignoring the mountain to focus on a molehill.

I don't support capital punishment in any case, and never will.

But if the victim's family do view this as justice and can find some peace at long last, then I am pleased for them as they have been through something too horrific for words.