Lisa Montgomery executed

[PegasusReturns]

Lisa Montgomery was executed yesterday - I don’t know how this amounts to justice in 2021. What an appalling tragedy her life and death was.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55642177

I’m sorry to hear you suffer from serious mental illness @plan.

While it is true that most people with schizophrenia are not violent, it is not true to say that all are not. A small subsection are or have the capacity to be. Sadly I know someone who suffers from psychosis due to schizophrenia who recently killed an elderly person. It’s a tragedy all round.

It is quite rare but some killings are carried out by people who are both mentally ill and have a violent outburst (not just schizophrenia, also personality disorders etc). I could instance some quite well known cases.

I did not say sane people do not do such acts or that such an act proves she was not sane. I said that Montgomery’s plan was not the plan of a sane or sensible, ie rational person.

We are all capable of murder every human is capable of it.

As for Lisa she got what she deserved and it should of happened years ago not now

She planned this not a psychotic episode she worked on this for months. She knew what she was doing end off.

No death penalty thread would be complete without some execrable grammar.

@Viviennemary

Good point Plande. Im sick of a bad upbringing being used as an excuse for heinous crimes. Myra Hindley tried that one. Her sister said she had the same upbringing from abusive parents but didn't murder any children.

So much of ignorance in your post that it is difficult to know where to begin, but I shall try.

1. Siblings do not have "the same" upbringings. They may have the same parents, they may live in the same house, but there are an enormous number of variables that make everyone's childhood unique.

1. Difficult childhoods, or, in the case of Lisa Montgomery, lives of abject abuse and deprivation, are not "trotted out" as excuses. However they are of course useful in helping us to understand why people behave as they do, the idea being that we can learn from the information.

1. More than 90 percent of prisoners have serious difficulties with learning and/or mental health. That alone tells us the justice system is highly discriminatory, and that it isn't working.

1. What exactly do you get out of being so dismissive of a woman who endured a dreadful life and death?

More than 90 percent of prisoners have serious difficulties with learning and/or mental health. That alone tells us the justice system is highly discriminatory, and that it isn't working.

Or it tells us that being in prison has a detrimental impact on mental health.

@ioffernothing

More than 90 percent of prisoners have serious difficulties with learning and/or mental health. That alone tells us the justice system is highly discriminatory, and that it isn't working.

Or it tells us that being in prison has a detrimental impact on mental health.

Well it’s both. But as has been discussed on this thread, rich and especially rich white people don’t get the death penalty for both political reasons and because they can hire decent defence. It’s predominantly poor people, especially those with poor mental health or mental impairments, who are sentenced.

I recently watched Just Mercy on sky. This is a biographical account of a black man, Walter McMillan, who was wrongfully convicted in 1986 of the murder of a young white woman. McMillan was chosen as a scapegoat, arrested then convicted using suppressed evidence and coerced witness statements. Decades later finally released from death row and the conviction quashed. The quote at the end of the film is haunting. For every 9 people who have been executed in the US, one person on death row has been proven innocent and release, a shocking rate of error.. This figure doesn’t even account for the posthumous pardons.

Now I know Lisa Montgomery was guilty. But the stats quoted above are testament as to why I believe it is paramount to repeal the death penalty laws in the US and never allow it to return here in the U.K..

Perhaps it is easier to use a concrete example: A class of 30 school kids grow up and all commit murder and are all sentenced to death. From the stat above, we learn at least 3 of those kids are innocent. Some may be executed in the meantime and not included in the stats of 1 in 10 being innocent and released because their sentence has already been carried out. In what way is that justice?

Mummyoflittledragon
That film is well worth a watch, it was very moving. I think there are some misguided posters on here. Just because we talk of being against the death penalty, it does not mean that we are dismissing what LM did. It isn't. I cannot begin to imagine what Bobby Jo and her family went through, it is absolutely horrendous, a henious wicked act that will live with this family forever.

But we can discuss more than this whilst saying that too? I find the death sentence barbaric, and very very wrong. The first female execution for nearly 70 years means this was a political act by a man who also wanted five black teenagers executed for a crime that was proven they didn't commit. And talking about what Lisa Montgomery went through in her life has to have a bearing on what she did, anyone who thinks otherwise does not understand that a human who is mentally and physically abused for all of their life from age 3 will have severe mental conditions.

How anyone can say but her sister is fine, she didn't murder anyone... don't me me laugh... I can even liken it to me and my home life and the totally different upbringings me and my sister had. Go and look at the video of her sister on here pleading for LM's life, it's heartbreaking.

LM was failed again and again and she was the product of that failure. Then in the last grand act of failure, she was executed. Saying that does not take away from what I feel about the Stirrett family and what they went through, one does not cancel out the other.

LM was failed again and again and she was the product of that failure

But this is the point, it’s such a huge leap. You have no idea if this was nature over nurture, you’ve no idea if her child hood had been different would she still have murdered.

It feels like a lot of people are trying to justify it. And I get that. It’s hard to accept that any woman would do this to another, and her abuse was so heinous that blaming that is an easy link.

It was proven in court that she was culpable and knew what she was doing was wrong. Her actions would validate that.

Whether she’d have done it or not if she hadn’t been abused is pure speculation. None of us know.

What we do know, is she did do it. She planned it for months, was sly and manipulative to enable her to try to convince everyone she was proegnant, to befriend this poor woman, even taught herself how to do a c section and then brutally murdered this woman.

Her abuse doesn’t justify her actions. Her abuse doesn’t mean leniency should be applied. That’s not how justice systems work. They are not mitigating circumstances.

What exactly do you get out of being so dismissive of a woman who endured a dreadful life and death?

I imagine her death was pretty peaceful, being sent off into a nice sleep. What a shame her victim wasn't given the same pleasure.

I'm sorry but she knew what she was doing so shit life or not what she did was wrong and she knew it.

You have no idea if this was nature over nurture, you’ve no idea if her child hood had been different would she still have murdered.

With all due respect, nor do you know.

However, my point is, it should not have ended up in execution, especially given the life she had, which I know you won't agree with. She should have been incarcerated forever because of her crime but not executed.
And you are wrong... the law says there can be mitigating circumstances, I am no lawyer but it's out there as part of US law.

For those who believe the execution was justified, do you at least accept that there is some level of controversy in this? On the very day, a federal judge ruled that she should not be executed because she did not have the mental competence to understand what was happening to her. That was overturned by the Supreme Court, 6-3. So even at the very end of all this, 3 of the 6 Supreme Court judges, who preside over a legal system in which the death penalty is legal, did not support the execution. Those nine judges knew all the facts of the case, unlike any of us. They may have come to a majority verdict, but it’s not simple and clear cut like some of you are making out.

(All of which is irrelevant to my point of view, which is that the death penalty should not be legal in any situation. The facts of the case do not affect that.)

(Posted too soon) what this thread is missing is that there’s two questions to the competence issue. First is was she mentally competent when she murdered Bobbie Jo. That was decided by the court process originally and she was sentenced to death. Second and totally separate was whether she was competent to understand what was happening to her now, 17 years later, for that sentence to be carried out.

I'm against the death penalty, even people like Ian Huntley should not be executed imo.

I think most people on death row have had terrible lives, normal happy people very seldom commit heinous murder.

The person who I feel most sorry for and is being overlooked this week is the murder victim. She died in agony not knowing what would happen to her baby, did she even know the sex? My thoughts are with her.

It’s interesting that people say the victim will have closure, but there is plenty of evidence that victims do not feel closure after the death of the perpetrator.

Look at Fred west for instance and Harold Shipman who both committed suicide. Many of their victims spoke out and said that they felt it was unfair that those men died, and would have preferred that they stay in prison for the rest of their lives so that they could live out their sentence.

Do people really think that Shipman and west’s victims (or the families of those victims) would have thought differently if they’d been sentenced to death rather than having ended their lives themselves? Somehow I doubt it.

Now I don’t necessarily feel sorry that Shipman and West are dead. And equally I don’t feel anything when the likes of Myra Hindley and Ian Brady died. But there’s a difference between acknowledging that someone’s death is not a bad thing, and actively wanting someone to bring about that death.

@Roussette

You have no idea if this was nature over nurture, you’ve no idea if her child hood had been different would she still have murdered.

With all due respect, nor do you know.

However, my point is, it should not have ended up in execution, especially given the life she had, which I know you won't agree with. She should have been incarcerated forever because of her crime but not executed.
And you are wrong... the law says there can be mitigating circumstances, I am no lawyer but it's out there as part of US law.

Eh, ok

Firstly of course I don’t know. None of us do. That’s my point. We can’t make definitive statements, because we don’t know, even the best psychologists wouldn’t hazard a guess based on the info we have if she’d have done this anyway

As for the mitigating circumstances, of course there can be in law, everyone knows that, the point is there was not, or they were not enough in this case. We are talking about this case only, not law in general

As said, I agree thr death penalty was wrong, I oppose it. I take no issue with this viewpoint. However I am tempering it with if it was my daughter she’d killed, my view would be very different indeed. I’d want to kill her myself, and if I wasn’t given that pleasure, I’d fully support someone else doing it. And I’d want her to die suffering the same sort of terror and horror she inflicted on her victim.

So for me, I think it’s horrific any state kills people. But I can honestly say that’s because I’m not related to the victim thank god. If I was, I know full well my view would be different.

None of us know how this family feel. Becayse they have not spoken out publicly, however they will have input their view into whether she should be killed or not. I’d hazard a guess they supported it. Because most people would if it was there’s and something this horrific was done.

Of course, any family should not have input into the punishment and possible execution of a criminal, that's what justice and the law is for.
But I agree with lots you say Bluntness

I'm not sure I agree with you, bluntness, but I respect the measuredness of your views on this.

I can't say because I haven't been in a remotely near situation, but I'm not sure I would want the perpetrator executed if it were my family. I think to me it might feel like more pointless violence, more savagery, more time that could have been good poured after the bad. I'm not claiming it is remotely the same, but I am a rape survivor, and I really empathise with the research that shows that for rape victims the threat or reality of "rough justice" being handed out to the perp generally makes their suffering worse. A lot of people seemed to expect I'd want my then-BF to go after the perp and it just made me feel like the whole world was senseless violence.

I can't say because I haven't been in a remotely near situation, but I'm not sure I would want the perpetrator executed if it were my family.

Not to mention how you would feel if it turned out it was an innocent person. Obviously some people here are quite comfortable with that and would tell you it was one of those things. But not a nice thought.

But this isn’t an innocent person, with Montgomery there is no doubt she was guilty

However I take my hat off to anyone who could see what she did done to a family member and not want revenge of the worst kind. I am not that person, for me, I would.

@Bluntness100

But this isn’t an innocent person, with Montgomery there is no doubt she was guilty

However I take my hat off to anyone who could see what she did done to a family member and not want revenge of the worst kind. I am not that person, for me, I would.

Oh I know. But don't worry, there will be someone innocent along soon. Just for balance.

@Viviennemary

Good point Plande. Im sick of a bad upbringing being used as an excuse for heinous crimes. Myra Hindley tried that one. Her sister said she had the same upbringing from abusive parents but didn't murder any children.

I think in the cases of bad upbringings they can either affect children badly or not, it just depends.

Interestingly enough I was reading Reg (John) Christie's account of his upbringing I think last year where it was stated that he had a troubled relationship with his father who would often punish his children for trivial offences but that Christie was alternately coddled and bullied by his mother and siblings.

See nowadays you'd have CAHMs and everyone else involved and counselling if needed to try to solve this but back then there was little or no involvement.

I'm not saying you should use a bad upbringing as an excuse for murder but in some cases I think it does do severe psychological damage.

It beats me how anyone can be capable of such evil.

@Bluntness100

But this isn’t an innocent person, with Montgomery there is no doubt she was guilty

However I take my hat off to anyone who could see what she did done to a family member and not want revenge of the worst kind. I am not that person, for me, I would.

I think it's very different if you're a family member and someone has murdered your relative.

It is so personal, so raw, so painful that I think in the vast majority of cases you'd be unlikely (and with good reason too) to forgive the murderer.

In a different scenario, there was a TV documentary called something like Interviews with the Executed or something - with Chinese people. One woman had been beaten severely by her DH and had flipped and murdered him. She was set to be executed by this sentence was commuted (?) to life imprisonment. I think she met with her SIL who was bringing up her young DD. At first the SIL was angry, she should have died etc but after a while especially with knowledge that the DH had beaten his wife the SIL agreed it was good the DW was alive and said positive things about taking care of her DD.

While Lisa Montgomery is not innocent - there was definitely a crime in this case, and she was definitely the perpetrator - it does happen that people are convicted of murder and sentenced to death on very flimsy and unreliable evidence (look up the West Memphis Three if you need a case study) and it seems it is terribly distressing and confusing for the families of a victim if it subsequently turns out that someone has been wrongly convicted. And the whole issue of sanity/competence in court is also very fraught and difficult. Courts do make horrendous mistakes in this area, and I don't find it sufficient to say "she was found competent to stand trial". There is a huge desire or need to find someone competent to stand trial when a notorious crime that stirs emotions is committed.

It’s interesting that people say the victim will have closure, but there is plenty of evidence that victims do not feel closure after the death of the perpetrator. Look at Fred west for instance and Harold Shipman who both committed suicide. Many of their victims spoke out and said that they felt it was unfair that those men died, and would have preferred that they stay in prison for the rest of their lives so that they could live out their sentence.

I would argue though that the victims families thought life in prison was preferable only because the murderers chose suicide. Death was what these murderers wanted. The victims families are going to want whichever outcome the murderers do not want, because that is punishment. The family of Montgomery’s victim Bobbie Jo Stinnett have said her execution did bring them closure.
“THE family of 'womb raider' Lisa Montgomery's victim say her killer's execution has brought them "closure" and her surviving daughter is "happy" and "living a normal life" after being kidnapped as a baby.”
“Bobbie Jo's brother-in-law, Ace Stinnett, told The Sun exclusively after her execution: "This brings us closure, we're going on with our lives now. "Justice has been served. We just wanted it to be over with. Bobbie Jo would be happy."”