Lisa Montgomery executed

[PegasusReturns]

Lisa Montgomery was executed yesterday - I don’t know how this amounts to justice in 2021. What an appalling tragedy her life and death was.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55642177

I'm on the fence with this.

There are so many horrific crimes committed throughout the world, not just in USA. Are these done because if captured the punishment is not really a punishment?
This woman had a truly awful life that is beyond comprehension, does that excuse what she did, who are we to say?
If it was a moment of madness, an opportunity (for want of a better word) presented itself and was acted upon, you could somehow explain this - however this was a long thought out campaign. She befriended this woman for the sole purpose of taking her baby. Whether rightly or wrongly, she knew what she was doing.

Why does her life mean more than the poor woman she brutally murdered? The family have literally been torn apart, a child had to grow up without a mother because of what she done.

Did Lisa deserve to die, I honestly truly don't know, but I do feel that she needed to punished for what she done and have that punishment serve as a warning to anyone else who thinks they can literally get away with murder

Not at all. Some people would pay to do it. Which really should tell you why it's an appalling idea,

Sorry Rosetti - I didn't make myself clear. That's why I said that people who are very keen to get the job shouldn't have it.

There will always be a minority who will take pleasure in it - you don't want people like that in a position of power over anyone else.

And yes - I agree that the Tories have probably got a "croney-company" lined up to get a lucrative contract for state-sanctioned murder.

Patel is hideous.

There is a film/book about one of the last British executioners, Albert Pierrepoint, who executed among others Derek Bentley and Ruth Ellis. He wanted to be an executioner (you had to apply after all) but ceetainly did not give the impression of someone who took pleasure in suffering, he took pride in carrying out swift, humane executions.
(I am against the death penalty by the way, I just found his story fascinating).

That is a heartbreaking read Rosetti

I wonder what happened to Lisa's own children?

And I wonder if the people who abused her (including her parents), and the social workers, doctors etc who documented her abuse but did nothing to help her were disciplined in any way.

Her case is beyond dreadful

@Uptheduffy

There is a film/book about one of the last British executioners, Albert Pierrepoint, who executed among others Derek Bentley and Ruth Ellis. He wanted to be an executioner (you had to apply after all) but ceetainly did not give the impression of someone who took pleasure in suffering, he took pride in carrying out swift, humane executions. (I am against the death penalty by the way, I just found his story fascinating).

There was an excellent TV programme about him some years ago - he was played by Timothy Spall IIRC.

As you say - he was a man who took pride in his work (quick and clean) and appeared to have compassion (he executed Irma Greese, the Beast of Belsen before the others scheduled that day because she was young and more likely to be frightened, so he didn't want to prolong her distress), but I think he must have had to compartmentalise his mind to acheive this, and his pride in the mechanics of death was his way of doing that.

I don't believe that he remained untouched.

This wasn’t justice. This was politics.

@Uptheduffy

There is a film/book about one of the last British executioners, Albert Pierrepoint, who executed among others Derek Bentley and Ruth Ellis. He wanted to be an executioner (you had to apply after all) but ceetainly did not give the impression of someone who took pleasure in suffering, he took pride in carrying out swift, humane executions. (I am against the death penalty by the way, I just found his story fascinating).

The book is an autobiography "Executioner Pierrepoint". Sadly not available anymore, but you can pick up a copy easily enough.

Well worth a read. Personally I have my doubts as to how sincere he was, but it ends with a powerful statement against capital punishment.

Just to keep within the law, and maintain balance, I'm happy to say I would have been less sure of my abolitionist tendencies during Nuremberg. My DM was against the death penalty, as was her DM, but they both expressed a certain satisfaction that the top Nazis that didn't evade justice did end up executed.

Yes, that's the one I saw!
He seemed relieved to retire didn't he, and he said he did not believe capital punishment actually acted as a deterrent. One of the people he had to hang was a friend of his (who had murdered his ex girlfriend, for context)

@ChaToilLeam

This wasn’t justice. This was politics.

I think something many people, in and out of the US, don't realise is how wholly political the US justice system is. Judges are almost all political appointees; district attorneys and public prosecutors are almost all elected and have to re-run for office to keep their jobs (or move up the political ladder) so when there is a high profile case, it's massively in their personal political interest to get a conviction and they'll use every available legal and grey-legal tactic to get one.

DGRosetti, just looked and that book is still available on Kindle, I might read it thanks

all Whattodoffs I only look at how this people if not captured or if left out would carry on their crimes. Even the inmates must have been horrified of being closer to her. Let alone perfectly innocent victims. The system fails both ways.

I read her abusive background and it's horrific but her 'planned' murder of this poor pregnant woman is even more horrific.

I really, honestly, cannot make that distinction.

According to her mother her first words were along the lines of 'don't hit me it hurts'. She had her mouth taped shut so much she learned not to cry. Just that on it's own is heart-breaking to me, I have no idea how anybody could treat a child like that. But then to be raped over and over again, beaten over and over again. Her own mother selling her to men. Her abusive marriage to her step brother. Her second marriage seems to have been abusive as well, just a bit less so. That's decades of abuse, pain, trauma.

I really can't pick out one as being more horrific than the other. They're both heart-breakingly sad.

I hadn't heard of him but sounds interesting. Hard to see how anyone would do that job.

This is her sister pleading with Trump for her sister's life.a few days ago. Not for her sister's freedom, but for her life. It's very moving.

@ItsIgginningtolookalotlikeXmas

DGRosetti, just looked and that book is still available on Kindle, I might read it thanks

Interesting. It wasn't when I last looked.

Of course people were able to take the tube to the last public execution in Britain in 1868. London Transport ran special "gallows specials". Just in case anyone was feeling rather smugly civilised at the moment.

There's another book by an abolitionist about the Pierrepoints

www.amazon.co.uk/Pierrepoint-Executioners-Britains-Infamous-Hangmen/dp/B00C9FUP2W/ref=sr_1_1?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Good.

Yes she had a horrific childhood. That is true.
But many people suffer horrific childhood abuse and don't commit such a horrific crime as she did.

She planned this. This wasn't a spur of the moment killing. This was premeditated. She plotted , befriended that poor young girl , murdered her and cut her baby out.

You can pity her til the cows come home. I'll save my sympathy for the real victim, her baby and the family.

Well how do you know she was having one?
She created a new identity, deliberately targeted, purchased rope ect she knew exactly what she was doing. It's called premeditated. If she was having a psychotic episode why didn't she kill the baby too I wonder? Very odd.

I’ll preface this by saying I don’t believe she should have been executed and ultimately the reason why was due to a man one could also postulate is extremely mentally ill. BUT I’m not sure I buy those who are saying this was due to a psychotic episode. She was definitely mentally ill and essentially this had been inflicted on her and could have been prevented/ameliorated by possible earlier intervention. This doesn’t fit with a psychotic episode in my understanding of what that entails due to the length of the period of premeditation and planning and execution. Crimes committed during psychotic episodes tend to be more spontaneous and planning very short term and opportunistic. I’d be very glad to hear an opinion from any psychiatrists if on here? Not on this person and the act but the general understandings around this. I’m guessing that’s why it may not have been pushed by the legal defence, they may have had difficulty saying this would/could have been conducted as part of a psychotic episode. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying she didn’t suffer psychotic episodes, she definitely did (good example being the goat incident) but the considerably extended period of premeditation and planning doesn’t seem to fit the crime on trial.

Apologies, swear I did have the beginning bolded and spacing/paragraphs before pressing send, think it’s not working well with phone.

I’m glad she is at peace, what an awful life. Awful for her victims, just sad all round. Trump killed her for his own pleasure, he is no better.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Her new lawyer was saying on radio 4 yesterday that her appalling childhood etc wasn't brought out in court

Obviously I wasn't there so can't know, but I doubt that very much; far more likely he's out to grab a bit of attention for himself, knowing what he said would make no difference to the outcome

FWIW I'm completely against capital punishment, but let's not assume the actual conviction was unsafe in itself

I think the lawyer was talking not about the conviction but the sentencing. The NY Times article someone linked above makes clear these are two separate processes, but both involve the jury. So if they had known all the details of Montgomery's abusive childhood, the jury might not have recommended the death penalty.

You can pity her til the cows come home. I'll save my sympathy for the real victim, her baby and the family

My sympathy is not limited or constrained nor needs to be saved. I have a lot of sympathy for others too, including Lisa Montgomery and the torture and abuse she suffered from 3 years old until being put to death as a final grand gesture by Trump.

One of the many good things about Mr Trump not being President after next week is there will be no-one else treated as such.

Another lovelybitofSquirrel .Completely agree with you there.There have been many people badly abused by their families, and let down by the System . They are not a collective bunch of people who can commit heinous crimes and get away Scot free FFS! I think in America the Death Penalty is there as a deterrent ,rarely used but kept for the worse cases.I cannot think of any more terrible a crime than befriending a young Mother to be(who was a dog breeder ) .Pretending to be interested in buying a pup, /driving nearly 200 miles to her home,and then strangling the poor young woman and cutting the baby out .It takes planning /pre meditation .Not a case of just grabbing a nearby baby(Obv a dreadful crime also) Not a fan of the Death Penalty ,but it is there to be used as a last resort .

For the avoidance of confusion, not a single person either on here or IRL has lobbied for Lisa Montgomery to be released. She should have spent her life confined. Believing that someone should not have been executed is not the same as lobbying for them to "get off scot free".

@Anotherlovelybitofsquirrel

Good.

Yes she had a horrific childhood. That is true.
But many people suffer horrific childhood abuse and don't commit such a horrific crime as she did.

She planned this. This wasn't a spur of the moment killing. This was premeditated. She plotted , befriended that poor young girl , murdered her and cut her baby out.

You can pity her til the cows come home. I'll save my sympathy for the real victim, her baby and the family.

Most abused children certainly don't commit crimes on that scale. It should be acknowledged, though, that while all abuse of children is terrible in the extreme, the extent to which Lisa Montgomery was abused was greater than that of the vast, vast majority of abused children. And it feels wrong to try and quantify child abuse but while some survivors of abuse, if given the right help, can go on to leave happy, fulfilling, well balanced lives, Lisa Montgomery never had a fucking chance.

What would have been a far more likely- probable, really- scenario would have been for her to abuse her own children, which is much, much more common outcome. And then everyone would be reserving their sympathy for her children. Until her children grew up and did the same thing to their children, at which point some people on here would be braying for their deaths.