Lisa Montgomery executed

[PegasusReturns]

Lisa Montgomery was executed yesterday - I don’t know how this amounts to justice in 2021. What an appalling tragedy her life and death was.

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-55642177

@Samcro

Bobbie Jo Stinnett poor woman to be murdered in that way,

Thank you for being the first poster to say her name.

I can't find the article now but I read that throughout her very sad life, she was only left alone when she was pregnant. Hence her attempt to get another baby to protect herself from abuse, by whatever means possible. She was immensely let down .

A similar case here in the UK
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-55189658

There was some police bodycam video circulating of the moment when the police found and apprehended the assailant. She was calm, collected and spoke plainly. Her eyes ,behaviour, speech and expression said to me that the fact that she was almost oblivious to what she had just done. I wonder if the childs parents would have he executed? Should victims relatives have a say or should we leave it to barristers?

I don’t believe in the death penalty, at all.
However, I reserve my sympathy for Bobbie Jo Stinnett, murdered in one of the most horrific ways I can think of.

@unmarkedbythat

No one should ever be executed.

I would make an exception for Sutcliffe, Robert Black and the Moors Murderers though. Not because of "sensationalism", because they were truly evil and there was no hope of rehabilitation.

On the whole I agree - two wrongs don't make a right and it sticks in the craw that Trump is still allowed to use these powers.

@thedancingbear

Another vote for 'I wouldn't've executed Hitler' here. Murder begets murder.

Yup. "What about Hitler?" is a worn out argument in most debates but it's particularly odd in this one... Hitler killed himself. He chose death over standing trial because he knew it would be the easy way out. I'd have rather he spent the remainder of his life in prison.

I feel sympathy for both, I'm sure everyone on here feels sympathy for Bobbie Jo Stinnett.

@Arobase

I hate the fact that Trump is ordering all these people to be killed in such a rush essentially because he can and because it gives him a hard-on.. After last week, anything he orders should have been automatically put on hold.

Absolutely this. Horrible thing to do.

It’s a terrible thing. Plenty of people who have had horrific childhoods don’t go on to commit crimes like this but I think killing a mentally ill person doesn’t sit right. It’s just another way that parts of America are so incredibly backward on so many issues.

I do not agree with the death penalty. In cases such as these, I wonder what percentage of the population having the same brain damage and upbringing would commit the same crime. My gut would say it is a relatively high percentage. On that basis alone, I struggle to see how Lisa was sentenced to death.

She married her stepbrother. Her sister spoke about the horrific abuse and how she escaped, but Lisa did not.

Misplaced hope, but Covid could have been the pause that enabled the US reflect that they are only as healthy as the poorest in their society as it spreads around the country .

A different way of thinking how to help the poor access health care and support children in abusive homes so they don't grow up and murder someone they may care about.

I agree with everyone that this is the most terrible crime that is impossible to comprehend, but disagree that execution solves anything.

Something that isn't often mentioned when supporting death penalty is that we would have to select people to execute on our behalf - those people are part of society and would return home to their families with the knowledge of someone's final moments. Would you want that for any of us? Could you be sure that power was in the hands of the "right" people and their motivations?

Armies live with consequences of trauma and can be affected for the rest of their lives - we wish people in our day to day society to also live with such consequences?

Well I phrased that a bit clumsily. I don't mean to say that someone brought up in an abusive environment grows up to commit any crime, let alone this unimaginable crime.

Patently that isn't the case, people from abusive backgrounds do NOT grow up to repeat the crimes of their parents and apologies if upset anyone with poor phrasing.

Her new lawyer was saying on radio 4 yesterday that her appalling childhood etc wasn't brought out in court

Obviously I wasn't there so can't know, but I doubt that very much; far more likely he's out to grab a bit of attention for himself, knowing what he said would make no difference to the outcome

FWIW I'm completely against capital punishment, but let's not assume the actual conviction was unsafe in itself

You could take me around any category A prison in this country and show me people who I'd quite like to see dead. At least, that would be my initial, emotional response. However, the law does not exist to pander to my emotional reasoning. There would be no point to killing this people, no matter how much you or I may hate them, because it wouldn't achieve anything. I would support longer sentences for many crimes and I would support life imprisonment, for I believe that many people receive disgustingly short sentences for their crimes when they are clearly a danger to others. But I can see no real purpose to killing them.

Agree

Here is what Lisa Montgomery went through.

TRIGGER WARNING

Even though it is a published article, it is very horrific and very gruelling

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/05/lisa-montgomery-death-row-execution-history

(Please do not flame me for posting it, but it does show her history and how she was let down)

It was also legal in the US to execute people who committed their crimes as minors and people with learning disabilities as late as 2005. I find that incredible.

The case of [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham Cameron Todd Willingham] is also one to look into in justifying the death penalty. Willingham was executed for the alleged murder of his three children in what was considered to be a deliberately set fire; however, multiple independent examinations of the scientific evidence since have concluded that the fire was accidental. He died for a crime that never happened at all. These colossal misfires of justice are not common, but they happen.

when supporting death penalty is that we would have to select people to execute on our behalf
Vets put to sleep animals when required. I dont think anyone would doubt that love animals, they have just found a way of reconciling what needs to happen with their own value system.

Aw, bugger, messed up link. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cameron_Todd_Willingham

Full disclosure, I learned of this case through the writings of ex FBI agent John Douglas, who is strongly right wing by UK standards and supports the death penalty in principle but believes a massive misfire of justice occured here.

Vets put to sleep animals when required

For the analogy to be complete, it would need to be dogs that put dogs to sleep, etc.

Otherwise we're just discussing the dictionary. And Doctor isn't a synonym for executioner in mine. Maybe I need a new one ?

Something that isn't often mentioned when supporting death penalty is that we would have to select people to execute on our behalf - those people are part of society and would return home to their families with the knowledge of someone's final moments. Would you want that for any of us? Could you be sure that power was in the hands of the "right" people and their motivations?

Armies live with consequences of trauma and can be affected for the rest of their lives - we wish people in our day to day society to also live with such consequences?

I've commented on this, too - executing someone has GOT to be brutalising. It's one of those jobs where the people who are very keen to do it are the ones who shouldn't have it.

And your are right about service personnel - when it comes to actually killing, very few people can do it without suffering mentally. They may think they can, but they can't.

I would support longer sentences for many crimes and I would support life imprisonment, for I believe that many people receive disgustingly short sentences for their crimes when they are clearly a danger to others. But I can see no real purpose to killing them

Totally agree; however I believe at least part of the support for the death penalty in the UK is driven by the knowledge that those "disgustingly short sentences" aren't going to change any time soon

I realise that this case is in the US, but perhaps some see the way things have gone over here and don't fancy it for themselves?

I've commented on this, too - executing someone has GOT to be brutalising.

Not at all. Some people would pay to do it. Which really should tell you why it's an appalling idea, (although it explains Priti Patels enthusiasm. I imagine they've already worked out a scheme to make executions profitable. Spread betting on how long to death or something)

There's a telling moment in former death penalty supporter turned abolitionist Michael Portillos documentary "How to kill a human" where he suggests a painless method of execution to a US sheriff. Which is declined with a small smile and "...I think we want them to suffer, don't you ?". If that's the sort of person you like to agree with, then knock yourselves out.

In that context, there is a film on Netflix 'Shepherds and Butchers' about a prison guard on death row in South Africa who was traumatised by the executions he witnessed and comitted murder himself. Very gruelling what he went through

'The film's story, based on real events, follows the trial of a 19-year-old white South African charged with murder after gunning down a group of seven black men. During the trial, it emerges he was a prison guard and, over a period of two years, was forced to execute some 160 men, mainly black activists'