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Original poster

Can my DD take the children in these circumstances?

251 replies

IceCreamSnob · 13/12/2020 02:57

Sorry this will be long: I desperately need advice

For background - My DD has two small daughters (both under 7) with her ex partner. They split up two years ago, he still see's the children but my DD has custody of them both. She and the kids live with us (myself and DH) at the moment. DD has some learning difficulties related to an accident she suffered as a teenager and struggles to care for her children without heavy support. Because of this myself and my DH do a lot of the childcare for our dgd's.

About a year ago DD told us that she had a met a new boyfriend online. She bought him round to see us soon after and introduced him to the kids. A couple of months later she asked if he could move in because he was being evicted from his accommodation. I said no. DD had a huge strop at me and declared that she would move out then. I said fine. Heard no more about it from her (she quite often says she'll do stuff in the heat of the moment then doesn't bother) until I came back from work on Tuesday. DD was not at home and most of her stuff was gone. I rang her and asked where she was. She said she was with her boyfriend (in his hometown) and they were moving into a flat together that day.

The flat (that she hadn't told us about) is nearly 100 miles away from us and all her close family (it's in the same area that her boyfriend is from) . She's now saying that she and her boyfriend are going to come back and take the children to live with them on Monday.

I have serious concerns that the children won't be looked after.

The few times that DD has had the children alone (without support) have not gone well. She doesn't spot potential hazards (ie: she left on a hot iron unattended in DGD's bedroom and one of the kids caught her arm on it) another time the younger dgd was nearly hit by a car because she didn't hold dgd's hand whilst crossing a main road.

She doesn't plan anything in advance or think ahead. This often means she doesn't have food in the house or she'll forget to collect the kids from school unless we remind her. She has no new school organised for them currently, she says she'll look for one after Christmas...

The few times I have met her boyfriend I have been concerned about his behaviour towards dd. He's very posessive and overbearing. If we went out for a meal for example then he wouldn't let DD go to the loo by herself for example. He would insist on waiting outside the toilet door. He also answers her phone for her and opens her post. He has his own children but he has no contact with them

When they turn up on Monday can I refuse to let the children go with them? I've suggested to DD that she comes back and we discuss it but she's insisting on taking them Monday. I'm very concerned for their welfare

Thanks for reading

OP posts:
chocolateoranges33 · 13/12/2020 18:41

Please contact the school tomorrow to let them know of the situation and ask to speak to the DSL (designated safeguarding lead) to discuss it in depth with them. Good luck

CodenameVillanelle · 13/12/2020 18:45

@diddl

"She has PR too and is therefore allowed to make decisions about where her children live and who lives with them."

Even if the father was nearby & wouldn't be too much put out, could it be argued that it would be better for the kids to stay in their current school & close to relatives with whom they have a relationship?

But the father isn't nearby and isn't proposing to suggest having the kids in his care so what's the point in this question?
Whenwillow · 13/12/2020 18:51

I've not read full thread but I've read all your posts @IceCreamSnob
Just wanted to send my best wishes for a good outcome Flowers

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Families
Yellowmellow2 · 13/12/2020 18:59

@ChristmasCookies

Ring the local police station and social services
No, no, no! As said many times before, this is not a police matter. Nothing illegal is taking place and no justification for a emergency order.
slipperywhensparticus · 13/12/2020 19:03

Flag your concerns with the school too she has essentially abandoned her children for a bloke and now wants to drag them down with her

diddl · 13/12/2020 19:04

"But the father isn't nearby and isn't proposing to suggest having the kids in his care so what's the point in this question?"

Because it seems to me that parents can do what the fuck they want for any spurious reason even if it's not best for the kids, as long as there is no abuse/neglect!

CodenameVillanelle · 13/12/2020 19:08

@diddl

"But the father isn't nearby and isn't proposing to suggest having the kids in his care so what's the point in this question?"

Because it seems to me that parents can do what the fuck they want for any spurious reason even if it's not best for the kids, as long as there is no abuse/neglect!

Basically yes! It's part of living in a democratic society. The U.K. has a tradition of laissez faire governance and that extends to people's rights to raise their children as they see fit. The law allows people to harm their children to a certain extent, it only allows for intervention if the harm reached the legally set out threshold of 'significant harm'. Whatever your views are on this, that's how our legal and social system functions.
youvegottenminuteslynn · 13/12/2020 19:10

@diddl

"But the father isn't nearby and isn't proposing to suggest having the kids in his care so what's the point in this question?"

Because it seems to me that parents can do what the fuck they want for any spurious reason even if it's not best for the kids, as long as there is no abuse/neglect!

That is the case, which isn't anywhere near ideal but is the reality of it unfortunately.
Flvq · 13/12/2020 19:18

@diddl

"But the father isn't nearby and isn't proposing to suggest having the kids in his care so what's the point in this question?"

Because it seems to me that parents can do what the fuck they want for any spurious reason even if it's not best for the kids, as long as there is no abuse/neglect!

That’s how the law works.

There is a high threshold to reach for removal.

Flvq · 13/12/2020 19:19

[quote ChristmasCookies]@PutThemInTheIronMaiden

Why? She is a risk to her own children[/quote]
No. She’s not. Legally at this point she’s not.

mooncakes · 13/12/2020 19:19

@diddl

"But the father isn't nearby and isn't proposing to suggest having the kids in his care so what's the point in this question?"

Because it seems to me that parents can do what the fuck they want for any spurious reason even if it's not best for the kids, as long as there is no abuse/neglect!

Well, yes - of course! It’s not illegal to be a rubbish parent.

There are loads of parents who are adequate, barely adequate, selfish, have weird beliefs, don’t value education, aren’t very nice, live chaotic lives - the state can’t intervene in every less than ideal family.

Flvq · 13/12/2020 19:21

@IceCreamSnob does your dd have a social worker herself due to her LD?

Rachie1973 · 13/12/2020 19:30

[quote Flvq]@IceCreamSnob does your dd have a social worker herself due to her LD?[/quote]
I’m also curious about this as she seems to have been able to function in an adult relationship previously.

Jellycatspyjamas · 13/12/2020 20:00

Because it seems to me that parents can do what the fuck they want for any spurious reason even if it's not best for the kids, as long as there is no abuse/neglect!

We assume people have capacity to make their own choices, and allow them to make decisions for their children unless and until those decisions cause significant harm to children. It’s actually a good thing. Otherwise your children could be removed because you made them go to church/didn’t make them go to church (depending on the prevailing view about children and religion), they could be removed because you work full time (if someone thought that wasn’t in their best interests) or because you chose the wrong school for them.

You just need to look on here to see the very divergent views on what children need to grow and thrive and what people consider to be abusive or not. Having a high threshold for intervention is a good thing for society - we could argue that resource led planning sets the threshold too high in practice but with the best will in the world there’s nothing in the OPs posts that remotely reaches the threshold for statutory intervention.

MrsRockAndRoll · 13/12/2020 22:02

Can school back up your concerned? Do they have knowledge of her lacking capacity to make safe decisions?

Dullardmullard · 13/12/2020 23:27

If you go to a lawyer they’ll tell you the same as we have. You have no legal right to them at all. Yes heartbreaking as it is, this is bound to of been in the cards in her future surely, her leaving with the kids either with a boyfriend or herself.

She has a legal right to her kids and why did you lie to them, what’s wrong with saying mums with her boyfriend and say his name

I see now you have no PR not even guardianship why is that? Is it because her learning disabilities isn’t that severe for SS to be flagged up.

You didn’t answer my question either over her having custody and he can the father can visit was this court ordered

So what’s really going on here?

Dullardmullard · 13/12/2020 23:30

@MrsRockAndRoll no because it isn’t on their remit as it’s not classed as safeguarding that she wants to move away with her boyfriend and her own kids.

alwaysinthewronglane · 14/12/2020 00:11

CodenameVillanelle to be fair I did add the caveat that I hadn't read the whole thread, but a good proportion of it. No need to police the thread. If the OP fInds my post unhelpful, I am sure she'll scroll past. Also when there is the same view expressed repeatedly by a number posts this can add weight & credibility, which is seen all the time on relationship posts. Best of luck OP Smile

CodenameVillanelle · 14/12/2020 07:22

@MrsRockAndRoll

Can school back up your concerned? Do they have knowledge of her lacking capacity to make safe decisions?
School don't make assessments like that
Diddlysquatty · 14/12/2020 23:31

Sorry I know not the main point of the thread, but I think it is quite interesting the number of posters who are surprised that (unless there’s more to it) social services would likely not intervene in this case immediately and prevent a mother from icing away with her children whom she has parental responsibility for.
Wonder if there’s any crossover with people who in other scenarios get upset at the idea of the state ‘interfering’ with a parents right to do what they think is best for their child eg in some medical cases?
Not saying the OPs concerns are not justified in this case but it’s not that easy to step in for good reason, and we can’t have it both ways

midnightstar66 · 15/12/2020 06:34

My suggestion to speak with social services was to make them aware rather than any expectation that they will whip the dc away. For her daughters sake as well as her grandchildren. From what op has described she's a vulnerable person in a potentially abusive/controlling relationship with out all the skills to keep both herself and dc safe in the present situation. I'd want them to be on someone's radar at least.

CodenameVillanelle · 15/12/2020 06:38

@midnightstar66

My suggestion to speak with social services was to make them aware rather than any expectation that they will whip the dc away. For her daughters sake as well as her grandchildren. From what op has described she's a vulnerable person in a potentially abusive/controlling relationship with out all the skills to keep both herself and dc safe in the present situation. I'd want them to be on someone's radar at least.
They won't be on anyone's 'radar' unless they open an assessment.
midnightstar66 · 15/12/2020 07:02

Well surely it takes someone bringing the situation to their attention to decide whether it's worth opening an investigation? That's kind of how it works isn't it? An individual or an organisation raises a welfare concern and the social worker decides whether that concern needs further investigation? In my old job I've supported several women in similar positions to OP's daughter who had social services involved. Fwiw quite a few no longer have their dc several years on.

CodenameVillanelle · 15/12/2020 08:05

Yes you're right, that was a silly answer due to me not being fully awake.
Of course they would decide whether to open an assessment or not and the OP shouldn't be put off referring it just because they won't stop the mum from taking the children.

haggistramp · 15/12/2020 08:17

Sadly there is nothing you can do. Even if your daughter has involvement from SS already, they will bend over backwards to ensure the kids stay with the mum, even if its to the detriment of the children. Until the children come to physical harm, they will be left in care of mother regardless of any other damage (e.g emotional) being done to the children or the sub standard parenting skills.