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Original poster

Can my DD take the children in these circumstances?

251 replies

IceCreamSnob · 13/12/2020 02:57

Sorry this will be long: I desperately need advice

For background - My DD has two small daughters (both under 7) with her ex partner. They split up two years ago, he still see's the children but my DD has custody of them both. She and the kids live with us (myself and DH) at the moment. DD has some learning difficulties related to an accident she suffered as a teenager and struggles to care for her children without heavy support. Because of this myself and my DH do a lot of the childcare for our dgd's.

About a year ago DD told us that she had a met a new boyfriend online. She bought him round to see us soon after and introduced him to the kids. A couple of months later she asked if he could move in because he was being evicted from his accommodation. I said no. DD had a huge strop at me and declared that she would move out then. I said fine. Heard no more about it from her (she quite often says she'll do stuff in the heat of the moment then doesn't bother) until I came back from work on Tuesday. DD was not at home and most of her stuff was gone. I rang her and asked where she was. She said she was with her boyfriend (in his hometown) and they were moving into a flat together that day.

The flat (that she hadn't told us about) is nearly 100 miles away from us and all her close family (it's in the same area that her boyfriend is from) . She's now saying that she and her boyfriend are going to come back and take the children to live with them on Monday.

I have serious concerns that the children won't be looked after.

The few times that DD has had the children alone (without support) have not gone well. She doesn't spot potential hazards (ie: she left on a hot iron unattended in DGD's bedroom and one of the kids caught her arm on it) another time the younger dgd was nearly hit by a car because she didn't hold dgd's hand whilst crossing a main road.

She doesn't plan anything in advance or think ahead. This often means she doesn't have food in the house or she'll forget to collect the kids from school unless we remind her. She has no new school organised for them currently, she says she'll look for one after Christmas...

The few times I have met her boyfriend I have been concerned about his behaviour towards dd. He's very posessive and overbearing. If we went out for a meal for example then he wouldn't let DD go to the loo by herself for example. He would insist on waiting outside the toilet door. He also answers her phone for her and opens her post. He has his own children but he has no contact with them

When they turn up on Monday can I refuse to let the children go with them? I've suggested to DD that she comes back and we discuss it but she's insisting on taking them Monday. I'm very concerned for their welfare

Thanks for reading

OP posts:
Poppinjay · 13/12/2020 10:28

As Social Care won't stop your DD taking the children, your best approach is probably to get their father to contact them.

However, the new boyfriend sounds like a coercive controller. He is likely to promise Social Care the moon on a stick if and when they look into how the children will be kept safe. Social Care will then record that there is someone to take on the role you have been fulfilling, i.e. helping their mother care for them safely.

You need to highlight the coercive control aspect to Social Care and ask them to treat your DD as a vulnerable adult who is at risk of abuse by this man. It's a long shot but, if the children's father expresses the view that they should remain in their established and stable home, it's worth a try.

So sorry you are going through this.

Rachie1973 · 13/12/2020 10:31

All this ‘talk to the HT/SS/father will be seen as a conspiracy by the DD who will simply take her children and go, as is her legal right.

Then OP will lose her way in to keep an eye on (albeit from a distance) on her grandchildren.

Frazzled2207 · 13/12/2020 10:31

@CodenameVillanelle
Apols am naive.
What I meant was if the dad also has concerns and speaks to ss they might be more inclined to get involved. Whereas I don’t think the daughter can be stopped from taking them it could well be that their are grounds for ss to investigate

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Families
Rachie1973 · 13/12/2020 10:33

@Poppinjay

As Social Care won't stop your DD taking the children, your best approach is probably to get their father to contact them.

However, the new boyfriend sounds like a coercive controller. He is likely to promise Social Care the moon on a stick if and when they look into how the children will be kept safe. Social Care will then record that there is someone to take on the role you have been fulfilling, i.e. helping their mother care for them safely.

You need to highlight the coercive control aspect to Social Care and ask them to treat your DD as a vulnerable adult who is at risk of abuse by this man. It's a long shot but, if the children's father expresses the view that they should remain in their established and stable home, it's worth a try.

So sorry you are going through this.

Coercive control comes under the domestic abuse banner. Without the DD input it won’t hold up.
Flvq · 13/12/2020 10:42

Do any of you who are posting contact the ss ring the police coercive control - do you ever stop to think?

I’m sure this op is completely legit and honest but imagine what it would be like if ss could swoop in and take children away from their parent on the say so of a grandparent.

Don’t you think through what it would be like if a grandparent could make allegations of abuse and those be automatically believed enough so that children would be taken from their mother?

Goldensnitchy · 13/12/2020 10:46

Good luck OP Flowers

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 13/12/2020 10:53

I agree with PP

When you weigh up the worst case scenarios of telling social services vs not telling them, you know it's the right thing to do.

Yellowmellow2 · 13/12/2020 10:53

@Frazzled2207

This is a very tough situation. See what SS say - hopefully you can speak to someone today. Also contact school’s HT urgently. Maybe as a short term measure he could speak to the mum and convince her that taking out of school without a clear plan is not a good idea?
Or she.....
AliceMcK · 13/12/2020 10:59

[quote CodenameVillanelle]**@AliceMcK* If their Dad has parental rights, can he support you with the police and social services to stop your DD from taking them away?*

No. Read the thread.[/quote]
My question was to the OP not you, no need for a snarky read the thread comment!

viques · 13/12/2020 11:02

@wheretoyougonow

Your daughter is an adult with capacity. You need to lower your expectations of what SS can or will do. Nothing you have written is an indication of serious harm. However, I would advise that you make a Claire's Law application. Just to be absolutely clear, you will not be told if there is an issue but your daughter will.
I think the problem is that while she might have capacity to deal with her own affairs, it appears that her LD mean she does not show capacity in decisions and safeguarding issues for the children.
Flvq · 13/12/2020 11:06

But if the dd hasn’t ever had any input re the LD then it will be a longer road.

Really the op needs to post in legal and also seek advice in RL tomorrow.

Fastnfurriest · 13/12/2020 11:08

I'd ask their father to file for a prohibitive steps order to keep her from moving them. Is in the country now?

CodenameVillanelle · 13/12/2020 11:11

@Fastnfurriest

I'd ask their father to file for a prohibitive steps order to keep her from moving them. Is in the country now?
On what grounds? It isn't going to interrupt his contact is it? Fathers who live abroad don't get to veto mothers' decisions about where they live with their kids without very good grounds
Jellycatspyjamas · 13/12/2020 11:17

I think the problem is that while she might have capacity to deal with her own affairs, it appears that her LD mean she does not show capacity in decisions and safeguarding issues for the children.

You can’t assume lack of capacity, parenting capacity is a long complex assessment and even if she does lack some capacity in her parenting it doesn’t mean her children would be removed from her care. There’s a very high threshold for removal, and rightly so otherwise anyone who didn’t like your life choices could complain and have your kids taken off you.

This is a situation where working with mum to support her parenting is more likely to result in a good outcome.

Rachie1973 · 13/12/2020 11:22

@Fastnfurriest

I'd ask their father to file for a prohibitive steps order to keep her from moving them. Is in the country now?
Really? You think the court will grant a prohibited steps order on the basis that an absent father who entered into a relationship with this learning disabled daughter, had 2 children with her, and then buggered off to work abroad by choice?

She was not too learning disabled to have an adult relationship. I assume she lived with a partner for some of the time. I also assume he worked and she took care of the children in his absence.

OP may be worried, and I totally understand that having been in the situation, however it would be wrong to assume the DD is incapable of parenting her own children. Someone must have been doing it in those years between.

mooncakes · 13/12/2020 11:30

Maybe there’s a bit of confusion on this thread about what the role of social services is?
Social workers don’t come in and make a decision about what is best for the children and who would be better at caring for them - maybe we would all agree that it would be best for the children to continue living with their grandparents. But it’s up to a parent where the children live.

If social services have evidence that the mother can’t adequately care for the children and they will suffer significant harm in her care, then they can apply to the courts.

Parents are free to make bad decisions and generally be fairly rubbish parents so long as they don’t cause their children really significant harm. Doesn’t matter that someone else might do a better job.

freezedriedromance · 13/12/2020 11:37

People have also mentioned getting a prohibited steps order to stop the children going. This is false. A grandparent has no legal rights. In order to apply for the prohibited steps order they must first apply to court for permission to even ask for a prohibited steps order. This isn't a quick process, you are talking months, especially if there's no documented evidence of the daughter being an unfit mother.

You are better trying to convince your daughter to stay. If she won't, feel free to make a report to social services, but she has parental responsibility and right now can make this decision on behalf of her children.

Dullardmullard · 13/12/2020 11:43

Why has most of you jumped on don’t let her take them her boyfriend is controlling?

How do you know all things you’ve posted if he isn’t living there it’s all very one sided.

We have one side of a story as there is 3.

What the OP has put won’t get her the kids
If she takes them at all she can be done with kidnapping as GPs have no parental rights. Please be aware of this.

If she does have a learning disability how did she get custody of the kids and is this court ordered as it’s unusual to be granted regardless. Do you means she is the main carer of the girls and dad comes to see them when he can.
If you thought she couldn’t of managed why didn’t you do a court order that you have some PR as well when they came to live with you.

SS won’t be interested nor the police unless SS are already involved. Plus how is it a safeguarding issue with the school. Folks move all the time so that wouldn’t even be raised at all.

Is it possible to actually talk to your daughter as your bound of known this could of been on the cards she’d meet someone and move out with her kids. Is this the real problem that you won’t see the grandchildren anymore.

As I’ve said this is all very one sided

Frazzled2207 · 13/12/2020 11:43

@Yellowmellow2
absolutely no idea why i said He

Unsure33 · 13/12/2020 11:52

@Dullardmullard

Fair enough but as a grandparent I would be using clares law to check on the partner plus trying to persuade the daughter to let the children stay for a while and at least consider their schooling and friends etc.

In this situation I do feel that the children’s welfare and security is at the least coming second to the daughters choices .

Unsure33 · 13/12/2020 11:54

@IceCreamSnob

Can I ask what level of contact your daughter and children have had with the boyfriend in the last 12 months ? Has she seen him a lot ?

Has he moved 100 miles away because of his job?

Dullardmullard · 13/12/2020 12:09

[quote Unsure33]@Dullardmullard

Fair enough but as a grandparent I would be using clares law to check on the partner plus trying to persuade the daughter to let the children stay for a while and at least consider their schooling and friends etc.

In this situation I do feel that the children’s welfare and security is at the least coming second to the daughters choices .[/quote]
So she does Claire’s law and it comes back with nothing what then

She’ll have driven her daughter away rather than actually talk to her she’s known she was still seeing this man and one day she’d be leaving surely even if it wasn’t him but another one in the future.

cansu · 13/12/2020 12:12

You may well be right that this is a bad decision but the examples you cite of your dd's poor parenting do not in themselves mean she is not an adequate parent. Parents make mistakes. There are many parents who make far from ideal choices. This doesn't mean she can't make those choices.
You will obviously worry about your grandchildren and will miss them being so far away after being so involved in taking care of them. I would however urge you to think carefully before you try to prevent your dd from moving with her children. She will in all likelihood move with them. Taking the children away from her care will take time and may not be successful. In the meantime, you will be estranged. Your dd won't reach out to you for help if she needs it and you will have less and less input and ability to keep an eye on your grand daughters. You might be better off being supportive and then you could have overnight visits and plenty of contact. You would then be in a better position to judge how well your dd is doing and whether the children are being properly cared for.

Nonamesavail · 13/12/2020 12:37

Falling out with the daughter will not go in your favour OP.

MotherExtraordinaire · 13/12/2020 12:43

@IceCreamSnob

Sorry this will be long: I desperately need advice

For background - My DD has two small daughters (both under 7) with her ex partner. They split up two years ago, he still see's the children but my DD has custody of them both. She and the kids live with us (myself and DH) at the moment. DD has some learning difficulties related to an accident she suffered as a teenager and struggles to care for her children without heavy support. Because of this myself and my DH do a lot of the childcare for our dgd's.

About a year ago DD told us that she had a met a new boyfriend online. She bought him round to see us soon after and introduced him to the kids. A couple of months later she asked if he could move in because he was being evicted from his accommodation. I said no. DD had a huge strop at me and declared that she would move out then. I said fine. Heard no more about it from her (she quite often says she'll do stuff in the heat of the moment then doesn't bother) until I came back from work on Tuesday. DD was not at home and most of her stuff was gone. I rang her and asked where she was. She said she was with her boyfriend (in his hometown) and they were moving into a flat together that day.

The flat (that she hadn't told us about) is nearly 100 miles away from us and all her close family (it's in the same area that her boyfriend is from) . She's now saying that she and her boyfriend are going to come back and take the children to live with them on Monday.

I have serious concerns that the children won't be looked after.

The few times that DD has had the children alone (without support) have not gone well. She doesn't spot potential hazards (ie: she left on a hot iron unattended in DGD's bedroom and one of the kids caught her arm on it) another time the younger dgd was nearly hit by a car because she didn't hold dgd's hand whilst crossing a main road.

She doesn't plan anything in advance or think ahead. This often means she doesn't have food in the house or she'll forget to collect the kids from school unless we remind her. She has no new school organised for them currently, she says she'll look for one after Christmas...

The few times I have met her boyfriend I have been concerned about his behaviour towards dd. He's very posessive and overbearing. If we went out for a meal for example then he wouldn't let DD go to the loo by herself for example. He would insist on waiting outside the toilet door. He also answers her phone for her and opens her post. He has his own children but he has no contact with them

When they turn up on Monday can I refuse to let the children go with them? I've suggested to DD that she comes back and we discuss it but she's insisting on taking them Monday. I'm very concerned for their welfare

Thanks for reading

Do you have guardianship?

Is this an informal agreement?