Can my DD take the children in these circumstances?

[IceCreamSnob]

Sorry this will be long: I desperately need advice

For background - My DD has two small daughters (both under 7) with her ex partner. They split up two years ago, he still see's the children but my DD has custody of them both. She and the kids live with us (myself and DH) at the moment. DD has some learning difficulties related to an accident she suffered as a teenager and struggles to care for her children without heavy support. Because of this myself and my DH do a lot of the childcare for our dgd's.

About a year ago DD told us that she had a met a new boyfriend online. She bought him round to see us soon after and introduced him to the kids. A couple of months later she asked if he could move in because he was being evicted from his accommodation. I said no. DD had a huge strop at me and declared that she would move out then. I said fine. Heard no more about it from her (she quite often says she'll do stuff in the heat of the moment then doesn't bother) until I came back from work on Tuesday. DD was not at home and most of her stuff was gone. I rang her and asked where she was. She said she was with her boyfriend (in his hometown) and they were moving into a flat together that day.

The flat (that she hadn't told us about) is nearly 100 miles away from us and all her close family (it's in the same area that her boyfriend is from) . She's now saying that she and her boyfriend are going to come back and take the children to live with them on Monday.

I have serious concerns that the children won't be looked after.

The few times that DD has had the children alone (without support) have not gone well. She doesn't spot potential hazards (ie: she left on a hot iron unattended in DGD's bedroom and one of the kids caught her arm on it) another time the younger dgd was nearly hit by a car because she didn't hold dgd's hand whilst crossing a main road.

She doesn't plan anything in advance or think ahead. This often means she doesn't have food in the house or she'll forget to collect the kids from school unless we remind her. She has no new school organised for them currently, she says she'll look for one after Christmas...

The few times I have met her boyfriend I have been concerned about his behaviour towards dd. He's very posessive and overbearing. If we went out for a meal for example then he wouldn't let DD go to the loo by herself for example. He would insist on waiting outside the toilet door. He also answers her phone for her and opens her post. He has his own children but he has no contact with them

When they turn up on Monday can I refuse to let the children go with them? I've suggested to DD that she comes back and we discuss it but she's insisting on taking them Monday. I'm very concerned for their welfare

Thanks for reading

Even if she has guardianship she can’t keep the kids from their mother she needs PR to stop her.

Have social care been involved previously?

A referral during pregnancy is usual if there are concerns about the mother’s ability to parent. And if the mother is able to raise her DC, but only with support, that is usually recorded on the assessment.

Thanks you again for all the well wishes, advice and support. I have an appointment with a solicitor tomorrow. In the meantime I've managed to convince her to leave the kids here until Friday (they break up from school on Thursday) so we have a few more days to sort this out. The kids keep asking where she is and I've had to tell them that she's gone on a holiday...

I'll try and update once we have a better idea of what's going to happen next.

That’s really good. Have you spoken to ss and the dad too? I think your best bet at this point is to let them have Christmas with their mother but make them argument that from a schooling point of view the best thing is for them to stay put at least for now.

Hope the solicitor is helpful

That's a good start. I hope things go well and the children are kept safe which is the most important thing here.

Yes please do keep her on side and not threaten any action that will push her away before you have full awareness of what you can and can't do legally.

If he is bad news, he'd like nothing more than triangulating you so it becomes him and her 'against the world' and you become people who just don't want them to be happy etc. I've seen it happen so many times.

A PP had a great shout of keeping her close to you by extending the length of time the kids stay with you, with her permission, to see if the relationship fizzles or there is more clear evidence the kids won't be safe.

Suggest they finish term / let them stay for summer so your daughter and boyfriend can have a holiday / sign them up for some activities you can help get them to and from etc. Being helpful, staying in close contact with them all and not pushing her away.

And yes you can make a Clare's Law application if you're worried about someone else in a relationship - the police will take it from there and won't necessarily update you at all but it's something you can at least ask them to do on her behalf.

Ring the local police station and social services

He was evicted previously & wanted to move in with you... Does he have a job? does she have a job? How are they funding this flat ?
Has he encouraged her to get social housing as single parent? if she has handicapped allowance he may be using her/her money to get free housing?

Ring the local police station

Again, don't do this.

@PutThemInTheIronMaiden

Why? She is a risk to her own children

If the ‘mother’ tries to take them,
The grandmother has to protect them !

What is your DDs financial situation? Is she capable to managing her money?

[quote ChristmasCookies]@PutThemInTheIronMaiden

Why? She is a risk to her own children[/quote]
No. She’s really not and I fear the OP is wasting her money with a solicitor as there is literally nothing she can do to stop her daughter legally

@ChristmasCookies

If the ‘mother’ tries to take them, The grandmother has to protect them !

The mother has the law on her side. The police would hand the children to the mother.

No care order to prevent it.

I haven't read the entire thread, so disregard if this conflicts with other comments...

You could refer to Local Authority (social services) but it's really a private law matter & you need a child arrangement order from a court specifying the children remain with you (residence orders don't exist any more)
Getting legal advice is the right first step because as you don't currently have parental responsibility, I believe you have to seek permission from the court to apply for a child arrangement order.
To support your position, I would advise that you evidence the level of your daughter's learning disabilities.

Does she have an adult social worker?
Did she have a statement of special educational needs whilst at school?
Has she ever had a capacity assessment, i.e. has a psychiatrist or psychology ever assessed her and concluded she lacks capacity to make decisions for herself?
Are there any professional reports or statements that evidence the extent of your involvement?
School, health visitor, etc.

Is there any evidence of her placing the children at risk of SIGNIFICANT harm (I have put that word in bold because any risk to her must be deemed significant from a safeguarding perspective, not just general 'harm').
The courts tolerate a level of harm in order for children to remain with their parents.

What level of assistance do you offer?
Be really specific, and include everything you can think of.
Do you support her to meet her own needs (money, health, work, etc)?
Do you do the critical care tasks for the children or support her to do those tasks?
What would / or has happened when your daughter has been left to care for the children?
Do the children have any specific needs which means moving them from nursery / school / etc would cause unreasonable levels of instability for them.

This will help you to help your solicitor to give you accurate advise.

If you are unable to secure the children remaining in your care, think very carefully about your next steps & the impact on your relationship with her & the children. Worst case scenario is the new boyfriend isolates her from you & you don't see the children. I would then refer your concerns to both the Local Authority & seek a court order mandating continued contact with you. This means you can monitor and escalate any concerns you have by observing the children.

It's a minefield! If your daughter returns from living with this man, I would strongly suggest seeking agreement from your daughter to share parental responsibility for your grandchildren if you feel that this is required to protect them.

@ChristmasCookies

Ring the local police station and social services

Cancel the cheque!

@alwaysinthewronglane

I haven't read the entire thread, so disregard if this conflicts with other comments...

You could refer to Local Authority (social services) but it's really a private law matter & you need a child arrangement order from a court specifying the children remain with you (residence orders don't exist any more)
Getting legal advice is the right first step because as you don't currently have parental responsibility, I believe you have to seek permission from the court to apply for a child arrangement order.
To support your position, I would advise that you evidence the level of your daughter's learning disabilities.

Does she have an adult social worker?
Did she have a statement of special educational needs whilst at school?
Has she ever had a capacity assessment, i.e. has a psychiatrist or psychology ever assessed her and concluded she lacks capacity to make decisions for herself?
Are there any professional reports or statements that evidence the extent of your involvement?
School, health visitor, etc.

Is there any evidence of her placing the children at risk of SIGNIFICANT harm (I have put that word in bold because any risk to her must be deemed significant from a safeguarding perspective, not just general 'harm').
The courts tolerate a level of harm in order for children to remain with their parents.

What level of assistance do you offer?
Be really specific, and include everything you can think of.
Do you support her to meet her own needs (money, health, work, etc)?
Do you do the critical care tasks for the children or support her to do those tasks?
What would / or has happened when your daughter has been left to care for the children?
Do the children have any specific needs which means moving them from nursery / school / etc would cause unreasonable levels of instability for them.

This will help you to help your solicitor to give you accurate advise.

If you are unable to secure the children remaining in your care, think very carefully about your next steps & the impact on your relationship with her & the children. Worst case scenario is the new boyfriend isolates her from you & you don't see the children. I would then refer your concerns to both the Local Authority & seek a court order mandating continued contact with you. This means you can monitor and escalate any concerns you have by observing the children.

It's a minefield! If your daughter returns from living with this man, I would strongly suggest seeking agreement from your daughter to share parental responsibility for your grandchildren if you feel that this is required to protect them.

This is a good post but this is also a really long thread and all this advice has been offered and questions answered. I doubt the OP will fancy going though it all again as things have moved on

I was going to suggest keeping them until the end of next week due the end of the school term so glad you’ve done that. I cannot offer advice OP but I really feel for you. Hopefully you can get some answers over the next week.

I wonder if dad can be notified and can be at the property when she plans to take the kids. At least he has pr so can stop her

"No. She’s really not and I fear the OP is wasting her money with a solicitor as there is literally nothing she can do to stop her daughter legally"

I'm guessing that the father has no say in where they live or the schools they go to?

It's sad isn't it that a father can just piss off & a mother can just take up with anyone & the kids have to live with it!

@Growapair

I wonder if dad can be notified and can be at the property when she plans to take the kids. At least he has pr so can stop her

@CodenameVillanelle is far more knowledgeable than me but even if their dad was around, this isn't the case I don't believe. He would have to provide evidence of serious risk posed to stop her moving with the children. She has PR too and is therefore allowed to make decisions about where her children live and who lives with them. He lives abroad so can't argue his access to the children is being blocked by the move. Of course this sounds like an unhealthy situation, but I'm speaking about the legalities not the ideal / best case scenario.

@youvegottenminuteslynn is correct. The father can only stop the mother from moving the kids with a court order, which he would be unlikely to get as he lives abroad.

"She has PR too and is therefore allowed to make decisions about where her children live and who lives with them."

Even if the father was nearby & wouldn't be too much put out, could it be argued that it would be better for the kids to stay in their current school & close to relatives with whom they have a relationship?

I think people don't realise in general how high the threshold for intervention is, let alone the threshold for removal of children from parents.

It's terribly upsetting and in cases like OP has presented it's such a shame but it's not realistic to think you can call SS and stop a parent having parental rights without proof of serious danger or negligence.

The priority for op in my opinion should be keeping the daughter close emotionally and trying to negotiate with her directly in the interests of the children (of course investigating what else can be done at the same time) so that this man can't isolate her and start the 'us against the world' tactics.

@diddl

"She has PR too and is therefore allowed to make decisions about where her children live and who lives with them."

Even if the father was nearby & wouldn't be too much put out, could it be argued that it would be better for the kids to stay in their current school & close to relatives with whom they have a relationship?

It could be argued morally that it would be better, but there is no legal precedent that a parent should do something that might make the children happier and more settled if there's no evidence of neglect or serious harm that meets a legal threshold.

Again not saying that's right, but that's reality.

Not saying this about OP's daughter just to be clear but the sad fact is parents can be shitty, selfish, foolish and immature but still retain parental rights. There's a bloody high threshold for any intervention let alone removal of PR.