Can my DD take the children in these circumstances?

[IceCreamSnob]

Sorry this will be long: I desperately need advice

For background - My DD has two small daughters (both under 7) with her ex partner. They split up two years ago, he still see's the children but my DD has custody of them both. She and the kids live with us (myself and DH) at the moment. DD has some learning difficulties related to an accident she suffered as a teenager and struggles to care for her children without heavy support. Because of this myself and my DH do a lot of the childcare for our dgd's.

About a year ago DD told us that she had a met a new boyfriend online. She bought him round to see us soon after and introduced him to the kids. A couple of months later she asked if he could move in because he was being evicted from his accommodation. I said no. DD had a huge strop at me and declared that she would move out then. I said fine. Heard no more about it from her (she quite often says she'll do stuff in the heat of the moment then doesn't bother) until I came back from work on Tuesday. DD was not at home and most of her stuff was gone. I rang her and asked where she was. She said she was with her boyfriend (in his hometown) and they were moving into a flat together that day.

The flat (that she hadn't told us about) is nearly 100 miles away from us and all her close family (it's in the same area that her boyfriend is from) . She's now saying that she and her boyfriend are going to come back and take the children to live with them on Monday.

I have serious concerns that the children won't be looked after.

The few times that DD has had the children alone (without support) have not gone well. She doesn't spot potential hazards (ie: she left on a hot iron unattended in DGD's bedroom and one of the kids caught her arm on it) another time the younger dgd was nearly hit by a car because she didn't hold dgd's hand whilst crossing a main road.

She doesn't plan anything in advance or think ahead. This often means she doesn't have food in the house or she'll forget to collect the kids from school unless we remind her. She has no new school organised for them currently, she says she'll look for one after Christmas...

The few times I have met her boyfriend I have been concerned about his behaviour towards dd. He's very posessive and overbearing. If we went out for a meal for example then he wouldn't let DD go to the loo by herself for example. He would insist on waiting outside the toilet door. He also answers her phone for her and opens her post. He has his own children but he has no contact with them

When they turn up on Monday can I refuse to let the children go with them? I've suggested to DD that she comes back and we discuss it but she's insisting on taking them Monday. I'm very concerned for their welfare

Thanks for reading

[Mamanyt]

Social Service will have an emergency number. Call it immediately. And, yes, please let us know what is happening. I'll fret about this one.

[OverTheRainbow88]

What a tricky situation, hopefully DD realises it’s a terrible idea and stays home

[Ohdoleavemealone]

I think legally she can take them.
Personally I would be going for a spontaneous day out with them to make sure they were not home when she arrived.

Presumably she knows how to get to there school so disapearing for the day buys you more time.

[Zoflorabore]

How worrying op.

My brother works for our local council’s emergency care line. Every LA should have one. There is always a duty social worker on shift with them. They are there for many reasons, some are literally life or death, others are situations like yours.

Involve as many professionals as possible. Your dd doesn’t sound like she is being rational. Is there any way you could stall her visit over the phone? We’re less than 2 weeks to Christmas, in a pandemic and these little girls need to be safe with family and continue to attend their school with their friends and teachers who know them well.

I wish you all the luck in the world. Thank god they have you and your husband

[greenspacesoverthere]

these little girls need to be safe with family and continue to attend their school with their friends and teachers who know them well.

This

Your DGC need constant security and stability. Their Mum and Dad can't give this, from what you say.

[Love51]

If she goes ahead, call social care, in both areas.
Is the children's dad any use? If any decent man thought his child was going to move in with their learning disabled mother and her probably abusive and evidently controlling new boyfriend, he'd be picking them up asap. Some would move the children to France, some would quit work and move to near the children's school..if he's any use (or not abusive) I'd be contacting him.

[Onadifferentuniverse]

Hopefully there’s somewhere safe you can take the grandchildren so they’re completely out of the way of her doing this.

I hope you get some good good advice this morning op.

What a creep he sounds, you must be extremely concerned about your daughter too.

[billybagpuss]

Call the emergency line today, I feel you won’t be able to do anything immediately but at least you can start the groundwork and absolutely get their dad involved he needs to know.

[Love51]

@Nomorepies social services can't remove children from their parents care. They would need to go to court and get a judge to make that decision and there is nothing like enough evidence in what OP has told us. As someone upthread said, the parent would have to be given support to improve over a prolonged period.

OP get the boyfriends full name if you can. And age. There may be a reason he isn't allowed to be around children, then social care can step in immediately.

[greenspacesoverthere]

social services can't remove children from their parents care. They would need to go to court and get a judge to make that decision and there is nothing like enough evidence in what OP has told us. As someone upthread said, the parent would have to be given support to improve over a prolonged period.

OP get the boyfriends full name if you can. And age. There may be a reason he isn't allowed to be around children, then social care can step in immediately.

I didn't realise that SS can't remove children from a potentially dangerous situation. Maybe the Claire's/Sarah's law is the best route after all

[pilates]

Agree with Zoflorabore can you try and stall to give you time to contact SS and get some sort of protection order in place (if you can). Good luck, what an awful position to be in.

[billybagpuss]

Also start getting paperwork and evidence for your dgds and have a word with the school as well. You’ve mentioned a couple of incidents but those could happen in the heat of the moment to anyone and aren’t sufficient to get social services involved. You need more proof over a prolonged period of time for things that she is incapable of doing to prevent her being able to take them.

I do understand your concerns and SS will help with advice but your dd is an adult who has the right to take her own children unless you can prove they will be in danger. It also sounds like she’s not had the opportunity to prove that she can or can not cope as you have always been there for her. You must absolutely be beside yourself and the guy sounds like a dreadful choice for your dd but realistically I think you could be in for a bumpy ride.

All the best, hopefully she’ll forget to collect them. Or you could suggest they are looking forward to Christmas etc and should they may be stay with you until she’s sorted a school. Anything to buy time.

[Trying2Heal]

@Gingerkittykat

What a sorry excuse for a human being the father is. Firstly he impregnates a woman with a learning disability twice and then leaves the country leaving the grandparents to pick up the slack.

Women don't get to use the excuse that they need to work abroad to skip out of parenting, so why should he? Even being unemployed or working in a low paid job and actually being a father is a better option for those kids.

We know virtually nothing of the backstory here.
This is pretty judgmental.

[MinnieMountain]

Also ask in Legal here OP. There are some very knowledgeable posters there.

[PutThemInTheIronMaiden]

Definitely Social Services out of hours, NOT the Police.

I think this is absolutely the right thing to do but please be prepared for the backlash from your daughter once they become involved (speaking from experience).

It's absolutely the right thing to do.

[pilates]

Does anyone know if the childrens father has rights to prevent this if they are not married?

[CodenameVillanelle]

You can't withhold her children from her assuming you don't have PR or a court order

Social services won't tell you that you can and calling out of hours will be pointless as they will only give advice in an emergency otherwise they will tell you to call again on Monday.
You'll need to make a referral to social services in the new area they are moving to. I doubt they will do much with the info you've provided but you should refer it anyway.
If things get really bad you can go to court for a child arrangement order to have the children placed with you but the threshold is extremely high obviously.

[tiredwardsister]

Assuming there is no care order in place naming you as their legal guardian and your DD has PR then you cannot stop her taking them. If you do take them out for the day without her permission and she gets a lawyer which she will if legal proceeding are taken against her by SS this could be very serious for you some would say that technically you are kidnapping the children if you haven't asked your DD for permission so I wouldn't do it.
Contact SS and explain your concerns but TBH (assuming there are no concerns about the BF) I very much doubt they would remove the children form her care immediately.
SS can remove children immediately (by going to court) but this would only be if they had very significant concerns e.g abuse and although what your describing isn't great I doubt very much whether it would even remotely meet the threshold for an interim care order.

[LaLaLandIsNoFun]

Unless there is an order in place saying that she cannot, then yes she can take them.

If there is not current SS involvement, LAs can be VERY slow to respond. Call the emergency duty team, explain everything. But also call a solicitor and explain everything - I’m no legal experts but if the circumstances are as you say I’d imagine you could make a child arrangements application on an emergency basis (grandparent usually have to ask the court for permission to apply first if I remember correctly.) Would dad be on board with this? Does he have PR?

[CodenameVillanelle]

@pilates

Does anyone know if the childrens father has rights to prevent this if they are not married?

No, not unless he goes to court and gets a court order and he would need to have evidence of harm or risk of harm to get that

[TW2013]

Do make sure that you discuss your concerns with the school ASAP as they will need to be aware in case she attempts to collect them from school. If she has PR and SS do not feel she is an immediate risk you might need to keep her sufficiently on side to be able to monitor her behaviour and care. Whilst the incidents sound negligent they possibly alone would not raise sufficient flags so you need to be in a position to retain some involvement.

[CodenameVillanelle]

@LaLaLandIsNoFun

Unless there is an order in place saying that she cannot, then yes she can take them.

If there is not current SS involvement, LAs can be VERY slow to respond. Call the emergency duty team, explain everything. But also call a solicitor and explain everything - I’m no legal experts but if the circumstances are as you say I’d imagine you could make a child arrangements application on an emergency basis (grandparent usually have to ask the court for permission to apply first if I remember correctly.) Would dad be on board with this? Does he have PR?

You're absolutely correct but also it's not the role of social services to intervene in private family law matters. People seem to expect social services to have some powers to do something in these circumstances and they really don't

[Trying2Heal]

@CodenameVillanelle

You can't withhold her children from her assuming you don't have PR or a court order

Social services won't tell you that you can and calling out of hours will be pointless as they will only give advice in an emergency otherwise they will tell you to call again on Monday.
You'll need to make a referral to social services in the new area they are moving to. I doubt they will do much with the info you've provided but you should refer it anyway.
If things get really bad you can go to court for a child arrangement order to have the children placed with you but the threshold is extremely high obviously.

Agreed.
It's not clear what illness the daughter supposedly has. Also, presumably at some point in time the daughter has managed to raise her kids without her parents' help? I don't think she and the kids have always lived with the OP?

[CodenameVillanelle]

@TW2013

Do make sure that you discuss your concerns with the school ASAP as they will need to be aware in case she attempts to collect them from school. If she has PR and SS do not feel she is an immediate risk you might need to keep her sufficiently on side to be able to monitor her behaviour and care. Whilst the incidents sound negligent they possibly alone would not raise sufficient flags so you need to be in a position to retain some involvement.

She can collect her own children from school!