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Original poster

Can my DD take the children in these circumstances?

251 replies

IceCreamSnob · 13/12/2020 02:57

Sorry this will be long: I desperately need advice

For background - My DD has two small daughters (both under 7) with her ex partner. They split up two years ago, he still see's the children but my DD has custody of them both. She and the kids live with us (myself and DH) at the moment. DD has some learning difficulties related to an accident she suffered as a teenager and struggles to care for her children without heavy support. Because of this myself and my DH do a lot of the childcare for our dgd's.

About a year ago DD told us that she had a met a new boyfriend online. She bought him round to see us soon after and introduced him to the kids. A couple of months later she asked if he could move in because he was being evicted from his accommodation. I said no. DD had a huge strop at me and declared that she would move out then. I said fine. Heard no more about it from her (she quite often says she'll do stuff in the heat of the moment then doesn't bother) until I came back from work on Tuesday. DD was not at home and most of her stuff was gone. I rang her and asked where she was. She said she was with her boyfriend (in his hometown) and they were moving into a flat together that day.

The flat (that she hadn't told us about) is nearly 100 miles away from us and all her close family (it's in the same area that her boyfriend is from) . She's now saying that she and her boyfriend are going to come back and take the children to live with them on Monday.

I have serious concerns that the children won't be looked after.

The few times that DD has had the children alone (without support) have not gone well. She doesn't spot potential hazards (ie: she left on a hot iron unattended in DGD's bedroom and one of the kids caught her arm on it) another time the younger dgd was nearly hit by a car because she didn't hold dgd's hand whilst crossing a main road.

She doesn't plan anything in advance or think ahead. This often means she doesn't have food in the house or she'll forget to collect the kids from school unless we remind her. She has no new school organised for them currently, she says she'll look for one after Christmas...

The few times I have met her boyfriend I have been concerned about his behaviour towards dd. He's very posessive and overbearing. If we went out for a meal for example then he wouldn't let DD go to the loo by herself for example. He would insist on waiting outside the toilet door. He also answers her phone for her and opens her post. He has his own children but he has no contact with them

When they turn up on Monday can I refuse to let the children go with them? I've suggested to DD that she comes back and we discuss it but she's insisting on taking them Monday. I'm very concerned for their welfare

Thanks for reading

OP posts:
Christmasbeach · 13/12/2020 07:59

Unfortunately I don’t think you’ve got a leg to stand on as your DD has parental responsibility.

Unless she’s classed as a vulnerable person herself and it’s evidence she’s getting exploited. Social services aren’t allowed to use common sense as their judgement. They’ll have to file huge amounts of evidence of her missing medical appointments, safeguarding concerns, late to pick up, evidence of injuries where she’s neglected the kids. Even then they’ll try to support her to make sure she’s hitting the kids basic needs.

It’s easier to remove a neglected animal from a family than a neglected child.

I think your best approach is try to talk your daughter around, or try to support her moving out in the local area so you can still be involved.

HullBrian · 13/12/2020 07:59

Google your local MASH team and call them today for some advice.

Social services absolutely will intervene and can put emergency measures in place while carrying out assessments.

CodenameVillanelle · 13/12/2020 08:01

@HullBrian

Google your local MASH team and call them today for some advice.

Social services absolutely will intervene and can put emergency measures in place while carrying out assessments.

What emergency measures do you think they could or would put in place?

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Families
midnightstar66 · 13/12/2020 08:05

There will be absolutely nothing that social services can do to stop this woman taking her children and moving in with this man. They may assess after the fact and discover that there are risks and intervene at that stage but they won't intervene now. OP could apply to court herself of course, she is unlikely to be successful based on what she has said but she could try.

Surely it depends on the level and presentation of the LD @CodenameVillanelle it could be very apparent that she is unable to care for the dc herself - and it found also be apparent that the new dp is not very genuine/taking advantage, and could well bring up something on a Claire's law search. Surely they'd apply to court for an emergency order if this situation was of major concern - which it could well be.

Flvq · 13/12/2020 08:06

@HullBrian

Google your local MASH team and call them today for some advice.

Social services absolutely will intervene and can put emergency measures in place while carrying out assessments.

What emergency measures do you think they’re going to put in place?

The dd has every right to lift her children if she wants to. She has PR the gps don’t.

There is also no evidence from the op of previous ss involvement.

HullBrian · 13/12/2020 08:07

They could apply for an emergency protection order, the police have powers to remove for 72 hours should the situation be serious enough.

I’m not saying that this situation is serious enough to warrant such measures but posters pilling on and saying SS can’t do anything are incorrect.

We only know what the OP has told us and it may be that SS pick this up as a normal referral, deem it below the threshold for emergency intervention and nothing is done, but it’s not true that nothing can be done if a child is at risk.

Jellycatspyjamas · 13/12/2020 08:09

Yes, your daughter can take her children to live with her new partner. It may not be wise, or what you want to happen, you may have concerns for their safety but she as their parent has the right to decide where they live. The state rightly limits interfere in family life to a very small set of fairly extreme circumstances, and there’s a process of assessment needed. I’d be listening to @CodenameVillanelle - she knows what she’s talking about.

I would speak to social services on Monday - the out of hours team are for emergencies and are likely to redirect you anyway. The police will only be interested if there’s some concern that criminal activity has taken place - the circumstances under which they can remove a child relate to immediate significant harm (eg small baby unattended while mum is incapacitated), they can’t just turn up and take your kids.

Everything social services and the police do in child protection needs to have a legal footing - from what the OP has said there’s no legal basis to prevent the children’s mum removing them from her parents care. There’s a lot of work to be done before that could happen.

I’d continue to try and keep communication open with your daughter, contact the school so they know the children are being moved and speak to social work on Monday detailing your concerns.

Flvq · 13/12/2020 08:10

@HullBrian

They could apply for an emergency protection order, the police have powers to remove for 72 hours should the situation be serious enough.

I’m not saying that this situation is serious enough to warrant such measures but posters pilling on and saying SS can’t do anything are incorrect.

We only know what the OP has told us and it may be that SS pick this up as a normal referral, deem it below the threshold for emergency intervention and nothing is done, but it’s not true that nothing can be done if a child is at risk.

The police are not going to intervene and remove children in a situation like this where a mother comes to pick her kids up from school.
teaorwine · 13/12/2020 08:12

@icecreamsnob, has your daughter previously had any assessments completed after her accident that give insight into the level and impact of her learning difficulties? If so they will be helpful to make your case with SS. I’m not sure if this is possible in the Uk but you could consult a solicitor about making an application for guardianship in the private family law courts based on your extensive involvement and support to your grandchildren. Agree with previous posters that this may take some time to resolve so maintaining an open channnel of communication with your daughter is necessary. It may be that her new boyfriend is abusive given his controlling behaviors , though I also wondered about learning disability also, so all the more reason to not alienate her. Good luck

CodenameVillanelle · 13/12/2020 08:13

@HullBrian

They could apply for an emergency protection order, the police have powers to remove for 72 hours should the situation be serious enough.

I’m not saying that this situation is serious enough to warrant such measures but posters pilling on and saying SS can’t do anything are incorrect.

We only know what the OP has told us and it may be that SS pick this up as a normal referral, deem it below the threshold for emergency intervention and nothing is done, but it’s not true that nothing can be done if a child is at risk.

They could, but on the basis of what the OP has said, they would not What's the point in talking about powers that agencies have in circumstance A when we are talking about circumstance Z?
CodenameVillanelle · 13/12/2020 08:16

@midnightstar66

There will be absolutely nothing that social services can do to stop this woman taking her children and moving in with this man. They may assess after the fact and discover that there are risks and intervene at that stage but they won't intervene now. OP could apply to court herself of course, she is unlikely to be successful based on what she has said but she could try.

Surely it depends on the level and presentation of the LD @CodenameVillanelle it could be very apparent that she is unable to care for the dc herself - and it found also be apparent that the new dp is not very genuine/taking advantage, and could well bring up something on a Claire's law search. Surely they'd apply to court for an emergency order if this situation was of major concern - which it could well be.

If the mothers LD was so significant that she could not parent alone then the GPs should have applied to court to share PR - they can still do that now. However plenty of parents have LDs and can and do parent alone. There would still need to be evidence that they are at risk of significant harm in her care.
Jellycatspyjamas · 13/12/2020 08:16

We don’t remove children from parents just because they have learning difficulties. SW would need to assess the extent of the learning difficulties, the capacity to learn and to care for their child and the supports they would need to continue caring for their child to a good enough standard. It’s only if the child is at risk of significant harm that SW can look at removal for protection purposes. They can’t rock up and remove a child on gran’s say so.

RedToothBrush · 13/12/2020 08:18

Did she go away with the boyfriend without telling you, leaving the children overnight in your care? So in effect leaving you to deal with the children even though she has full parental responsibility but you were just 'expected' / left with that responsibility without you having knowledge of where she is in case of emergency.

I believe this may technically count as child abandonment under certain circumstances if the children are currently with you and she is absent. Under these circumstances and if she is planning to remove the children from school without authorisation, then there is a problem right there which could merit immediate emergency intervention if you handle it right.

CodenameVillanelle · 13/12/2020 08:24

@RedToothBrush

Did she go away with the boyfriend without telling you, leaving the children overnight in your care? So in effect leaving you to deal with the children even though she has full parental responsibility but you were just 'expected' / left with that responsibility without you having knowledge of where she is in case of emergency.

I believe this may technically count as child abandonment under certain circumstances if the children are currently with you and she is absent. Under these circumstances and if she is planning to remove the children from school without authorisation, then there is a problem right there which could merit immediate emergency intervention if you handle it right.

It's not child abandonment if she left them in their usual home with their grandparents who are usual caregivers She doesn't need authorisation to remove the kids from school as she has PR The courts may grant the grandparents PR if they apply for an emergency order but I'm honestly advising that it's unlikely. The courts do not remove children from parents care without extremely high thresholds of evidence being met. Granting PR to the GPs would be effectively removing the kids from their mother.
MrsWombat · 13/12/2020 08:24

You can send an email to the school today. There may be a direct contact number or email to the safeguarding team on their website or just email their office. Someone will be checking the emails in case of positive coronavirus cases so there is a small chance you'll get a response from them today.

Based on my limited knowledge (of working in a school office) if the school know/share your concerns they will definitely contact social services, although if she has parental responsibility and you don't have special guardianship there may not be much they can do at the moment.

Definitely get those kids into school tomorrow to "say goodbye to their friends" and have their Christmas parties. It will buy you and the school some time to get something into place. (If they can) Good luck.

Flvq · 13/12/2020 08:25

@RedToothBrush

Did she go away with the boyfriend without telling you, leaving the children overnight in your care? So in effect leaving you to deal with the children even though she has full parental responsibility but you were just 'expected' / left with that responsibility without you having knowledge of where she is in case of emergency.

I believe this may technically count as child abandonment under certain circumstances if the children are currently with you and she is absent. Under these circumstances and if she is planning to remove the children from school without authorisation, then there is a problem right there which could merit immediate emergency intervention if you handle it right.

The children live with grandparents who habitually provide care. That’s not child abandonment.
Jellycatspyjamas · 13/12/2020 08:28

then there is a problem right there which could merit immediate emergency intervention if you handle it right.

There’s no abandonment, the children were left in their usual home with people who usually care for them. Emergency intervention isn’t a process to be gamed - removing a child from their parents represents a significant trauma for them, it should only be done in extreme circumstances where removal from parents is the only way to protect the child. There’s not remotely enough here to suggest removal is the only way to safeguard the child.

Diddlysquatty · 13/12/2020 08:36

I suppose that’s what I was sort of trying to say... if everyone didn’t think the mum was capable of making decisions in her child’s best interests and her ability to parent and make decisions was affected by her cognitive impairment, then really something should have been put in place earlier legally. Otherwise this sort of thing was always a possibility

RedToothBrush · 13/12/2020 08:37

Does that hold true if the grandparents don't know where the parent is and they have concerns about them and the kids are asking questions? Im not sure but the grandparents dont have parental responsibility so if something happens they cant make certain decisions and if they have no idea where the mother is that leaves them with serious safeguarding concerns which should be raised accordingly.

Somethingkindaoooo · 13/12/2020 08:37

Op
Maybe go in soft. Offer to keep them while your dd gets organised, etc.

I'm confused and amazed that someone who cannot look after her children without heavy support has full parental rights.
Those poor kids are potentially in for a terrible, terrible time.

movingonup20 · 13/12/2020 08:38

Call and he out of hours social services line and explain this, they can get an emergency order to stop her taking the kids, they will then access her ability to parent them and her bfs suitability too eg dbs check. The kids dad will be consulted too.

Respectabitch · 13/12/2020 08:41

I'd definitely get advice asap and consider retaining your own solicitor if you think this might need to go to a legal process at some point to get you established as a guardian, but I think your best bet in the short term, to retain the children with you, might be to play this smart. Would your daughter respond, do you think, if you suggested the children stayed with you just a bit longer so she could enjoy settling in with her new BF? So they could have some adult alone time?

movingonup20 · 13/12/2020 08:41

I should add that it's worth talking to the kids dad as if he agrees you should have guardianship it enhances your case considerably. Her medical situation and the incidents eg the iron are all relevant, father the evidence you have

Flvq · 13/12/2020 08:41

@movingonup20

Call and he out of hours social services line and explain this, they can get an emergency order to stop her taking the kids, they will then access her ability to parent them and her bfs suitability too eg dbs check. The kids dad will be consulted too.
This will not meet the threshold for an emergency order.
Jellycatspyjamas · 13/12/2020 08:42

Does that hold true if the grandparents don't know where the parent is and they have concerns about them and the kids are asking questions?

The grandparents easily got hold of her. You can’t create a new reality to suit the situation.