Can my DD take the children in these circumstances?

[IceCreamSnob]

Sorry this will be long: I desperately need advice

For background - My DD has two small daughters (both under 7) with her ex partner. They split up two years ago, he still see's the children but my DD has custody of them both. She and the kids live with us (myself and DH) at the moment. DD has some learning difficulties related to an accident she suffered as a teenager and struggles to care for her children without heavy support. Because of this myself and my DH do a lot of the childcare for our dgd's.

About a year ago DD told us that she had a met a new boyfriend online. She bought him round to see us soon after and introduced him to the kids. A couple of months later she asked if he could move in because he was being evicted from his accommodation. I said no. DD had a huge strop at me and declared that she would move out then. I said fine. Heard no more about it from her (she quite often says she'll do stuff in the heat of the moment then doesn't bother) until I came back from work on Tuesday. DD was not at home and most of her stuff was gone. I rang her and asked where she was. She said she was with her boyfriend (in his hometown) and they were moving into a flat together that day.

The flat (that she hadn't told us about) is nearly 100 miles away from us and all her close family (it's in the same area that her boyfriend is from) . She's now saying that she and her boyfriend are going to come back and take the children to live with them on Monday.

I have serious concerns that the children won't be looked after.

The few times that DD has had the children alone (without support) have not gone well. She doesn't spot potential hazards (ie: she left on a hot iron unattended in DGD's bedroom and one of the kids caught her arm on it) another time the younger dgd was nearly hit by a car because she didn't hold dgd's hand whilst crossing a main road.

She doesn't plan anything in advance or think ahead. This often means she doesn't have food in the house or she'll forget to collect the kids from school unless we remind her. She has no new school organised for them currently, she says she'll look for one after Christmas...

The few times I have met her boyfriend I have been concerned about his behaviour towards dd. He's very posessive and overbearing. If we went out for a meal for example then he wouldn't let DD go to the loo by herself for example. He would insist on waiting outside the toilet door. He also answers her phone for her and opens her post. He has his own children but he has no contact with them

When they turn up on Monday can I refuse to let the children go with them? I've suggested to DD that she comes back and we discuss it but she's insisting on taking them Monday. I'm very concerned for their welfare

Thanks for reading

[CodenameVillanelle]

@movingonup20

Call and he out of hours social services line and explain this, they can get an emergency order to stop her taking the kids, they will then access her ability to parent them and her bfs suitability too eg dbs check. The kids dad will be consulted too.

Noooo
Please stop with this
Emergency duty social work is for genuine emergencies and they would signpost to the police in that case who are the only agency with powers to remove children without a court order. These children are safe at the moment and there are no emergency measures that can be put in place to stop her taking them unless it's by the grandparents who can apply for an injunction/prohibited steps order but based on what they have said here are unlikely to get it

[CodenameVillanelle]

@movingonup20

I should add that it's worth talking to the kids dad as if he agrees you should have guardianship it enhances your case considerably. Her medical situation and the incidents eg the iron are all relevant, father the evidence you have

Please just stop. You clearly have no professional understanding of this situation and your advice is incorrect and unhelpful

[Jessbow]

I agree, softly softly approach.Phone her, rather than her make the journey Say things like....

Leave them here now to finish the term, with their friends

such a shame for them to miss all the school christmas stuff

You and John come here for christmas, then think about taking them back.....after you have celebrated new year...Oh term has started again, lets not uproot them until easter


String it out....hopefully the romance will fizzle out

[CodenameVillanelle]

@RedToothBrush

Does that hold true if the grandparents don't know where the parent is and they have concerns about them and the kids are asking questions? Im not sure but the grandparents dont have parental responsibility so if something happens they cant make certain decisions and if they have no idea where the mother is that leaves them with serious safeguarding concerns which should be raised accordingly.

IF there was an emergency and nobody could get hold of either parent with PR (don't forget there is a father whose whereabouts are known) then the hospital would follow whatever procedures they have in place for such circumstances. Nothing like that has happened so it's irrelevant.

[diddl]

"The children live with grandparents who habitually provide care. That’s not child abandonment."

Why does the fact that Op provides care mean that it isn't abandonment?

Their mother just walked away for the best part of a week!

[Flvq]

It will not meet the legal criteria for child abandonment.

[Sushi123]

This is a horrible situation and I hope it gets resolved. I can't offer any advice that hasn't already been given. I hope you get a chance to speak to your daughter without this new partner being around. How can she do this to her girls. She's only met this guy.... If he's sincere about her (doubt it) then he'll wait for an appropriate length of time for the girls to get used to him and for your daughter to get to know him properly

[Mix56]

Does she or the bf have enough money to provide them with decent accommodation & a bedroom, bed, bedding, etc.
Does she have any money? disability allowance?
Do you have the address of this place?
I would try & stall & get her to allow the DC to finish their school term, Xmas party, say goodbye & have Xmas as planned. Time to meet the bfs family even ?

[CodenameVillanelle]

@diddl

"The children live with grandparents who habitually provide care. That’s not child abandonment."

Why does the fact that Op provides care mean that it isn't abandonment?

Their mother just walked away for the best part of a week!

Because they were in their own home being cared for by relatives who they live with!
You can't just bend the meaning of words to suit your purpose.

[ApolloandDaphne]

Do you know why he has no contact with his own children?

[Rachie1973]

Unfortunately without your daughters consent there is little you can do.

Threshold needs to be met before children are removed, and then it has to satisfy the judge.

You can inform SS but I think it’s unlikely they’d have any power at the moment.

Your DD would be subject to a PAMs assessment as well before removal

Your best bet is to work something out with her to be honest.

[diddl]

"Because they were in their own home being cared for by relatives who they live with!
You can't just bend the meaning of words to suit your purpose"

I'm not trying to bend anything to any purpose-just trying to understand!

If I walked out my kids would be with their other parent.

These weren't.

They were left with from what I see, people who their mother lives with as she needs to because she cannot manage alone.

[Flvq]

It’s where they live. It’s their home. They were left with grandparents who habitually care for them.

It is not near the threshold for child abandonment.

[fucksanta1]

In the interim why not have the boyfriend to live with you all then go down the ss route

[Sarahandco]

I would not let them go until you have spoken to social services. Your daughter is vulnerable and this guy has lots of red flags. Would she have the capacity to determine if this man is a threat to her kids?

I would however keep things friendly to keep her on side and not further into the grip of this guy. I would perhaps tell her that you don't feel she will cope and should leave the kids with you until she has the school place arranged and everything else fully set up.

[Rachie1973]

It took 2 years for SS to go to court and remove my grandchildren from their parents.

There are so many steps before this point. Child in need plans, child protection plans, PLO conferences. All designed to help a parent be a decent parent.

Contrary to popular belief SS don’t just swoop and take.

Threshold must be met, and this is a legal guideline, not a personal one.

The outline is here childprotectionresource.online/what-does-threshold-criteria-mean/

The OP cannot withhold her GC. If the police were called they would return them to the mother as she holds PR and there is no immediate concern for their well-being.

[fucksanta1]

Also are the children moving to a different local authority area? This may change who you speak to

[Sarahandco]

I was going to add that for the kids I would invite them to stay for Christmas etc and meanwhile work on solving the situation.

[Jellycatspyjamas]

I would not let them go until you have spoken to social services.

And how would you do that? Under what legal power would you be able to stop a parent taking her children to live with her?

[Yellowmellow2]

Thank goodness there are a few knowledgable, rational professionals on this thread who are able to give correct information. The amount of misinformation and assumption from other posters is a worry.

If she does take the children out of school, the school have a duty to check that the children do start at another school. If not, they will be classed as ‘missing from education’. This would be followed up by education welfare so they can help your daughter get the children into a new school.

Good luck OP. Take advice from those who know what they’re talking about. A difficult time for you.

[Lovemusic33]

@Rachie1973

It took 2 years for SS to go to court and remove my grandchildren from their parents.

There are so many steps before this point. Child in need plans, child protection plans, PLO conferences. All designed to help a parent be a decent parent.

Contrary to popular belief SS don’t just swoop and take.

Threshold must be met, and this is a legal guideline, not a personal one.

The outline is here childprotectionresource.online/what-does-threshold-criteria-mean/

The OP cannot withhold her GC. If the police were called they would return them to the mother as she holds PR and there is no immediate concern for their well-being.

At last, someone who’s speaking sense. So many people commenting when they have no idea of how the system works. It takes ages to get children removed from their parents, SS should be informed, they will then try and work with OP’s dd to give her a chance to prove she’s capable of caring for her dc, if she’s not and she refuses to hand them back to grandparents then it would have to go through courts which can take some time.

The things OP describe in her opening post are not huge safeguarding issues, leaving a iron on is a dangerous thing to do but I’m sure many of us have done similar? (I left some hair straighteners on once), not holding on to a child tight enough and them running into the road is something I see many parents do, my friends dd slipped her hand and ran into a road, SS did not remove her. Yes, I can see that there are concerns and SS can look at these but I don’t think you can stop her from taking her own children.

[Jellycatspyjamas]

At last, someone who’s speaking sense

In fairness there have been a few social workers on the thread speaking quite a bit of sense.

[Rachie1973]

@Jellycatspyjamas

At last, someone who’s speaking sense

In fairness there have been a few social workers on the thread speaking quite a bit of sense.

Very true. I think people like to believe that SS have more power than they do.

I have a fully signed off SGO on my grandchildren (as of 2 days ago) but it’s been a long time coming!

[Meredithgrey1]

I’m amazed how some people seem to think you can just call SS, be taken completely at your word, and they will immediately enact some sort of emergency power to keep a parent from their children. What kind of system would that be? How incredibly open to abuse it would be.

To be clear I’m not saying the OP is attempting to abuse the system in any way.

[Yellowmellow2]

@Jellycatspyjamas

At last, someone who’s speaking sense

In fairness there have been a few social workers on the thread speaking quite a bit of sense.

Thank goodness!

Never ceases to amaze me that people think SS just swoop in and remove children, just like that.