Can my DD take the children in these circumstances?

[IceCreamSnob]

Sorry this will be long: I desperately need advice

For background - My DD has two small daughters (both under 7) with her ex partner. They split up two years ago, he still see's the children but my DD has custody of them both. She and the kids live with us (myself and DH) at the moment. DD has some learning difficulties related to an accident she suffered as a teenager and struggles to care for her children without heavy support. Because of this myself and my DH do a lot of the childcare for our dgd's.

About a year ago DD told us that she had a met a new boyfriend online. She bought him round to see us soon after and introduced him to the kids. A couple of months later she asked if he could move in because he was being evicted from his accommodation. I said no. DD had a huge strop at me and declared that she would move out then. I said fine. Heard no more about it from her (she quite often says she'll do stuff in the heat of the moment then doesn't bother) until I came back from work on Tuesday. DD was not at home and most of her stuff was gone. I rang her and asked where she was. She said she was with her boyfriend (in his hometown) and they were moving into a flat together that day.

The flat (that she hadn't told us about) is nearly 100 miles away from us and all her close family (it's in the same area that her boyfriend is from) . She's now saying that she and her boyfriend are going to come back and take the children to live with them on Monday.

I have serious concerns that the children won't be looked after.

The few times that DD has had the children alone (without support) have not gone well. She doesn't spot potential hazards (ie: she left on a hot iron unattended in DGD's bedroom and one of the kids caught her arm on it) another time the younger dgd was nearly hit by a car because she didn't hold dgd's hand whilst crossing a main road.

She doesn't plan anything in advance or think ahead. This often means she doesn't have food in the house or she'll forget to collect the kids from school unless we remind her. She has no new school organised for them currently, she says she'll look for one after Christmas...

The few times I have met her boyfriend I have been concerned about his behaviour towards dd. He's very posessive and overbearing. If we went out for a meal for example then he wouldn't let DD go to the loo by herself for example. He would insist on waiting outside the toilet door. He also answers her phone for her and opens her post. He has his own children but he has no contact with them

When they turn up on Monday can I refuse to let the children go with them? I've suggested to DD that she comes back and we discuss it but she's insisting on taking them Monday. I'm very concerned for their welfare

Thanks for reading

[LaLaLandIsNoFun]

social services can't remove children from their parents care. They would need to go to ‘court and get a judge to make that decision and there is nothing like enough evidence in what OP has told us. As someone upthread said, the parent would have to be given support to improve over a prolonged period.’

Not necessarily - I know of cases where zero support was given, other family members were encouraged to make applications to court and SS backed up family members applications on basis of what family members sold SS.

[CodenameVillanelle]

@tiredwardsister

Assuming there is no care order in place naming you as their legal guardian and your DD has PR then you cannot stop her taking them. If you do take them out for the day without her permission and she gets a lawyer which she will if legal proceeding are taken against her by SS this could be very serious for you some would say that technically you are kidnapping the children if you haven't asked your DD for permission so I wouldn't do it.
Contact SS and explain your concerns but TBH (assuming there are no concerns about the BF) I very much doubt they would remove the children form her care immediately.
SS can remove children immediately (by going to court) but this would only be if they had very significant concerns e.g abuse and although what your describing isn't great I doubt very much whether it would even remotely meet the threshold for an interim care order.

Based on what OP has said I doubt they will even do an assessment let alone go to court to remove the children! Don't even mention this as if it's a possibility, it's needlessly sensationalising the situation

[Trying2Heal]

People seem to expect social services to have some powers to do something in these circumstances and they really don't

@CodenameVillanelle

But if the children really are in danger, wouldn't social services have a duty to intervene?
I've witnessed a case before where the grandparents wanted the kids and claimed their daughter was an unfit mother and that the kids would not be safe if the mother was allowed to look after them without the grandparents' supervision, but the reality turned out to be a lot murkier than that and the daughter told a very different version of events.

[CodenameVillanelle]

@LaLaLandIsNoFun

social services can't remove children from their parents care. They would need to go to ‘court and get a judge to make that decision and there is nothing like enough evidence in what OP has told us. As someone upthread said, the parent would have to be given support to improve over a prolonged period.’

Not necessarily - I know of cases where zero support was given, other family members were encouraged to make applications to court and SS backed up family members applications on basis of what family members sold SS.

I'm sorry but whatever you've been told by people courts don't remove children without evidence and without the parent/S being given opportunities to make changes. The law doesn't work like that.

[CodenameVillanelle]

@Trying2Heal

People seem to expect social services to have some powers to do something in these circumstances and they really don't

*@CodenameVillanelle*

But if the children really are in danger, wouldn't social services have a duty to intervene?
I've witnessed a case before where the grandparents wanted the kids and claimed their daughter was an unfit mother and that the kids would not be safe if the mother was allowed to look after them without the grandparents' supervision, but the reality turned out to be a lot murkier than that and the daughter told a very different version of events.

They have a duty to ASSESS at this stage. Intervention such as removing children is only done under very specific and proscribed circumstances.
There will be absolutely nothing that social services can do to stop this woman taking her children and moving in with this man. They may assess after the fact and discover that there are risks and intervene at that stage but they won't intervene now. OP could apply to court herself of course, she is unlikely to be successful based on what she has said but she could try.

[CodenameVillanelle]

@greenspacesoverthere

*social services can't remove children from their parents care. They would need to go to court and get a judge to make that decision and there is nothing like enough evidence in what OP has told us. As someone upthread said, the parent would have to be given support to improve over a prolonged period.

OP get the boyfriends full name if you can. And age. There may be a reason he isn't allowed to be around children, then social care can step in immediately.*

I didn't realise that SS can't remove children from a potentially dangerous situation. Maybe the Claire's/Sarah's law is the best route after all

Only the police can remove children from parents without a court order. They can remove them and place them in the care of social services for 72 hours in which time social services need to either apply for an emergency protection order or return them to the parents

[Trying2Heal]

@CodenameVillanelle
Thanks for clarifying. You seem knowledgeable. Do you work in the social work/family law field?

[CodenameVillanelle]

@BethlehemIsInTier1

You need an Emergency prohibited steps order preventing your daughter removing your grandchildren from your care, for the reasons you stated. If your daughter has any care workers/Gp, School/SS involvement because of her disability, get them involved.

As the GPs don't have PR (I assume) a prohibited steps order is extremely unlikely to be granted

[CodenameVillanelle]

[quote Trying2Heal]@CodenameVillanelle
Thanks for clarifying. You seem knowledgeable. Do you work in the social work/family law field?[/quote]
Yes I'm a social worker

[LaLaLandIsNoFun]

What they CAN do, if it takes their fancy, is support other family members in court applications and, if judge orders it, trump up any reports to support so they don’t have to spend a penny supporting the parent.

I’ve seen it done on way way way less than the OP is reporting here.

[CodenameVillanelle]

@LaLaLandIsNoFun

What they CAN do, if it takes their fancy, is support other family members in court applications and, if judge orders it, trump up any reports to support so they don’t have to spend a penny supporting the parent.

I’ve seen it done on way way way less than the OP is reporting here.

I'm not going to engage with you any further, your conspiracy theories about corrupt social workers and incompetent courts are harmful and incorrect

[Sturmundcalm]

I can see why you are concerned but what you've reported as concerns would be unlikely to prompt SS to intervene to the extent that they would prevent your daughter maintaining custody of her own children, IMO.

It's not clear to what extent anyone outside the family is aware of her limitations? And, being blunt, the examples you give while not good don't suggest that she is abusive in any way and there would need to be a well-documented set of events (e.g. school records, SS involvement) before neglect could be established.

[Trying2Heal]

@LaLaLandIsNoFun

What they CAN do, if it takes their fancy, is support other family members in court applications and, if judge orders it, trump up any reports to support so they don’t have to spend a penny supporting the parent.

I’ve seen it done on way way way less than the OP is reporting here.

[MoreLikeThis]

OP, is there anyway you can persuade your daughter to leave the kids with you voluntarily? Offer to pay for her to visit or offer to take them up for visits.

[LaLaLandIsNoFun]

Sorry, @CodenameVillanelle, it is not a conspiracy. But feel free to not engage further - that is the exact attitude I came across again and again with professionals - it couldn’t possibly have happened, which is why it took me over two years to finally make it to a stage 3 complaints panel where it was proven that I was right. I have the report and the formal apology and the compensation to prove it.

Have a good day.

[Dovesandkisses]

What about the girl's father? Could he take them on Monday? So they are with a legal parent? I know he doesn't have full custody but does he have them overnight? If not please phone someone today. Don't leave it until tomorrow- it sounds like a very unsafe situation and once she takes them it will be much more difficult for you to get them back. Her boyfriend is a red flag and that alongside her difficulties seems like a dangerous situation.

[FenellaVelour]

Does anyone know if the childrens father has rights to prevent this if they are not married?

No, not unless he goes to court and gets a court order and he would need to have evidence of harm or risk of harm to get that

Actually he could make an emergency application to the UK courts for a prohibited steps order to prevent her from relocating the children, regardless of harm. Normally a step taken by a parent who lives locally though, and focused on the aspect of the child’s relationship with them being impacted by any move. Would be more unusual to be brought by a parent already living abroad, but other than that there’s no reason why he can’t make the application, and the Court would properly consider it. Welfare concerns would be looked at as part of the process.

[LaLaLandIsNoFun]

Anyway, OP.

Speak with a solicitor to see if there is anything you can do.

And try to keep your daughter on board with you sbd in touch with you if she goes ahead. Be supportive so you can stay in the loop - I don’t like the sound of the man you describe she’s moving in with.

Good luck.

[CodenameVillanelle]

@FenellaVelour

Does anyone know if the childrens father has rights to prevent this if they are not married?

No, not unless he goes to court and gets a court order and he would need to have evidence of harm or risk of harm to get that

Actually he could make an emergency application to the UK courts for a prohibited steps order to prevent her from relocating the children, regardless of harm. Normally a step taken by a parent who lives locally though, and focused on the aspect of the child’s relationship with them being impacted by any move. Would be more unusual to be brought by a parent already living abroad, but other than that there’s no reason why he can’t make the application, and the Court would properly consider it. Welfare concerns would be looked at as part of the process.

The reason I said he would need evidence of risk of harm is because he lives abroad and therefore that would be the only grounds on which he could be granted a prohibited steps order. You are right that he can apply regardless but given that he lives abroad he won't be successful unless there is evidence that they would be harmed if she takes this action

[Trying2Heal]

@LaLaLandIsNoFun

Sorry, *@CodenameVillanelle*, it is not a conspiracy. But feel free to not engage further - that is the exact attitude I came across again and again with professionals - it couldn’t possibly have happened, which is why it took me over two years to finally make it to a stage 3 complaints panel where it was proven that I was right. I have the report and the formal apology and the compensation to prove it.

Have a good day.

I agree that social workers are fallible just like anyone else. Of course they handle things very badly sometimes. Look at the Victoria Climbie case for example!!

[ApolloandDaphne]

The out of hours SW team might offer advice but they are there to help with emergencies not this type of thing. I suspect you will be advised to get legal advice. In Scotland you could apply for a residence order so the children can stay with you. I don't know what it is called elsewhere. Spend time getting together the evidence you have about your DDs in ability to care for the children and your concerns about her current partner. In the end however you may have to let her take the children. In that case I would contact SW in the area they move to and tell them your concerns. You also need to talk to the school as they could raise a safeguarding concern which may be taken more seriously by SS in your current area. Have the children had input from SS previously?

[cameocat]

As your DD has parental rights I'm not sure you can stop her now. Social services cannot just remove them but they can be involved in the new area and assess the girls' safety, help find a school etc.


I agree on doing some background checks (Sarah/clares law) on the boyfriend.

[midnightstar66]

Are the dc already on SS radar? Either way contact them ASAP and share your concerns. Have you spoken to dc's father yet. I presume he'd have similar concerns so get him to contact them also. Good luck op this does not sound like a good situation. Ideally speak to adult as too as your daughter sounds vulnerable and is likely going to need some support from what You've said of this man.

[Flvq]

Op what involvement does your dd have with ss already and what evidence of her LD do you have?

[Diddlysquatty]

I think it’s going to be difficult if the current arrangement was not formalised in any way

Sounds like you feel she lacks capacity to make this decision about her children’s care and is not capable of having parental responsibility basically, but if this isn’t legally in place that’s challenging

Good luck, hope this resolves without too much negative impact on the children 😞