Labour friend awful about tories

[tabicae]

NC as probably outing. I have a very close friend who is there for me though everything really and I am for them. We have always avoided politics and have had very different backgrounds. Given what’s been going on recently I’m politics, it’s been hard to avoid the topic.

Whilst I personally have no massive political leaning and can see both sides without coming down massively on either one, she knows that I was brought up in a Tory household and although I have never disclosed who I would vote for, she knows I am on the fence about things and like some Tory polices and some labour. A lot of my childhood was based around things she seems to strongly dislike and is open about...private schools, inheritance, private health, second homes etc.

Anyway..getting to the point. She has become VERY vocal about these things. Slagging off private education and people who went to them (always careful to say ‘there are exceptions’). Being critical of second homes yet happily staying in my parents second homes free of charge for a holiday. And it goes on like that.

She has recently become quite vulgar about tories, calling them and Boris c*nts, etc. I know I feel defensive about this as my dad is a very generous, caring man and he voted for Boris. It feels quite personal.

I’ve noticed that it seems ok on social media and in conversation to being vulgar about tories/anyone who aligns themselves with any Tory policies, yet it is unacceptable to ever do the same if you are a Tory talking about a labour supporter. In fact I am yet to hear a Tory speak so awfully about someone who votes for another party. I feel like her comments are getting in between our friendship and whilst I always knew we differed on this topic it has never ever been an issue between us.

I’m not sure what to say really...maybe she’s always had this view of me and my family and is only now vocalising it? Would you address it?

You're in danger of sounding like a snowflake, OP.

@tabicae

lights I hear what you’re saying but imagine you have worked and sacrificed a lot to be in a particular position of earning, only to have that taken away in bulk in comparison to someone who has worked significantly less hard? It’s not that clear cut of course but I think unless you are in that position you can’t imagine how that feels. It’s not always a case of poor v millionaires, there’s plenty in between who are hit hard by labour policies.

And here you assume that the only people who work hard are the rich ones.

Wow! Well you’re both suffering from cognitive dissonance to varying degrees!

Yes she is a hypocrite eg criticising those who have second homes but having zero qualms about holidaying in one! For free! I’d take issue with that myself even as someone she may well consider a kindred spirit

But

In fact I am yet to hear a Tory speak so awfully about someone who votes for another party.

have you been living under a rock? There are extreme and “vulgar” - as you put it - speaking people on both sides of this particular line!

I find it VERY hard to believe you’ve NEVER heard a Tory representative or voter speak disparagingly even disgustingly of or to:

People of non white ethnic backgrounds

People of non Christian faiths

People of non straight sexuality

Women but especially single mothers

The sick and disabled - certain illnesses/disabilities are particularly seen as “fair game”

The unemployed or even in work but in receipt of state benefits

The working class

The poorly educated

Because this is absolutely rampant in certain parts of sm and even in msm!

my dad is a very generous, caring man and he voted for Boris

Exactly WHO is he a very generous and caring man TO?

Because to be frank by voting Tory he is NOT caring and generous towards vast swathes of the Uk population who have been totally screwed over by this Tory party which includes but is not limited to the groups I listed earlier.

Unless you’re independently wealthy (which it sounds like your father is, even if you aren’t quite yet) this govt has completely messed up this entire country for generations to come - and we were only JUST starting to recover from thatcher!

I find that a damn sight more “vulgar” than a perfectly acceptable if sweary word used to describe the architects of this whole mess!

More people voted Tory than didn’t. not factually correct I don’t think. Iirc more who were eligible to vote didn’t than voted Tory I think in the last 3 GE’s?

@nosswith I’d agree. I’ve never been a Tory fan but at least previous Tory parties/govts had a level of intelligence and competence that was at least understandable to vote for even if one didn’t agree with all their policies. What we have now is like a caricature of Tory parties!

Op to be honest I find your position difficult to understand too, isn’t it sore sitting on a fence that hard? You seem to lack either understanding or interest in politics sufficient to decide where your own opinions lie. Nature abhors a vacuum as it were, and she’s instinctively filled it.

If you disagree with her, then at least have the courage - and knowledge of - your convictions and own why you believe in them.

I’m sceptical of your “I didn’t vote Tory” stance on thread. I think you are supportive of Tory beliefs but something (a conscience?) is making you reluctant to admit that.

You know you’ve benefitted hugely from a wealthy and privileged background but seem simultaneously ashamed of it and this friend in particular is perhaps challenging your belief system and that’s what’s actually making you uncomfortable? You might want to explore this further and decide what you really believe.

It’s far from unheard of for someone in your position to “switch sides” the one that springs to my mind is Tony Benn. But there are others too.

@theadventuresofthewishingchair - you might want to choose someone other than Mandela for such a point! While an admirable man he was far from perfect in this type of example, he was arguably pretty militant especially in his youth and not just vocally! Gandhi might be a more appropriate example?

Personally while I wouldn’t advocate violence I do think clear speech including criticism and even swearing is sometimes all we have to voice our anger, fear and disappointment. Because people aren’t JUST angry they’re SCARED and with damn good reason!

SCARED they’ll lose their jobs
SCARED they won’t be able to pay their bills
SCARED they won’t be able to feed their kids let alone themselves
SCARED they’ll get sick or disabled
SCARED they’ll lose their homes

And they have very very good reasons to believe these things are not only possible but likely for them and their families under this govt.

What are her circumstances? What are the circumstances of those she loves?

and if it does I won’t be calling labour voters cunts.

Do you understand that’s really just semantics? That simply because you speak more “politely” doesn’t make you necessarily a better person?

There are considerable studies that show that people who are more comfortable with swearing are:

More honest
More open minded
More intelligent

The queen is one person I can think of who likely rarely swears, doesn’t make her any less elitist, privileged and apparently not blessed with a great intellect.

You may not CALL labour voters cunts, doesn’t mean your voting choice or even personal behaviour isn’t in the form of treating them as if you view them as inferior all the same.

I’d rather someone was honest!

My family do a lot for charity

Which kind of charities? Genuine question

would do almost anything for those around them that’s pretty meaningless most people do this and it’s not totally altruistic it’s a form of self protection also

and back when they had very little money they did all they could do send us to a private school

Wow! I think YOUR version of “very little” is VASTLY different from mine and I suspect very many others in the Uk! Let alone the world!

If you were privately educated you DIDN’T have “very little” nothing like!

Voting to protect money you have earned - a key reason people vote Tory - is not something to be embarrassed about actually myself and others with a socialist leaning would very much disagree, its very much something to be embarrassed about. It’s voting for personal gain, I’d also question how those earnings were made because I’ve yet to come across a wealthy person who’s earnings were not at least partly due to a far worse off person/s labour/work!

Also, arguably having a well cared for and protected society benefits everyone in the long run

but I would expect everyone who knows me well would tell you I am very kind and caring to whom? Based on what exactly?

And there are lots that have almost enough but it is constantly taken away by labour policies. That’s where the problem lies. please do expand on this! Because it’s certainly not true of any recent labour govt!

So you think only people on high wages work hard then OP?

I think that’s exactly what they believe but I don’t think they’ll admit it even to themselves

The 'I worked hard' myth is just another way for people to justify keeping a disproportionate amount of the resources often isn't it? yep!

Wealth - or lack thereof is largely down to luck!

Right from conception!

Being conceived to be a healthy, fit, academically able person.

Being born without complications at the birth causing any disabilities

What family you’re born into and their wealth but also if they’re academically able and if they’re good parents etc

Which affects the education you receive both in terms of the schools you attend and in terms of home environment to allow you to fully engage with and make the most of that education

Which affects whether you attend uni and if so which one

Which affects which job/career you take up upon leaving uni and if it’s a profitable one - both in terms of earnings and connections

Which affects what you’re able to provide to your children in the way of possible advantages and disadvantages

There are so many ways in which luck impacts us at every stage of our lives, but those who start our lucky tend to get even more lucky

Many aren’t [lucky] and Tory policies tend to keep them vulnerable and unable to progress. exactly! It’s bad enough not to acknowledge your own privilege - it’s quite another to go out of your way to block others from accessing the means to improve their own circumstances!

But when you are working hard to have most of what you earn taken away, that is bound to feel unfair?

Erring towards the Marxist viewpoint here but how much of it is really a rich persons “earnings” if as is usually the case the profits are very much dependent on the labour of a greater number of people on nmw? We have a HUGE disparity in pay between lowest paid workers and top management now.

In the 50’s iirc lowest paid worker to ceo pay ration was ceo paid around 7 times more, a recent study showed more than 2/3 of the ftse 100 ceos were paid over 100 times more than an average worker! When looking at nmw that ratio rockets to over 200 times the pay of the nmw worker.

Now THAT is vulgar THAT is obscene!

NOBODY needs that pay disparity to exist, so I would argue damn straight those ceos should be taxed a lot for it to go some way to them paying back to their workers the money that actually it’s more realistic to say the workers earned!

OP is either painfully politically naive or totally disingenuous. yes I’m sceptical myself!

To be clear, I have not said poor people don’t work hard, they most likely work harder than most. so please DO explain why the ceos of their companies SHOULDN’T take a pay cut (which wouldn’t even leave them in a non wealthy position just less wealthy) in order to pay them AT LEAST an actual living wage that would allow them to support themselves and their families without govt aid? Rather than the circuitous and inefficient route with many loopholes that is the taxation system?

I’m pretty sure that happened after the votes and my dad didn’t directly vote for that. that’s a really weak excuse! Tories have a LONG history of treating the poor, sick and disabled like dirt! This is NOT a new thing by any means.

The last GE came
AFTER Brexit
AFTER swathes of HUGE cuts which most affected the poorest and least able to protect themselves in our society
AFTER the HUGE rise in food bank use
AFTER the huge rise in homelessness
AFTER people we’re literally dying as a DIRECT result of Tory policies - and those investigating have been stonewalled and gagged!

He voted for a party that did these things Absolutely unapologetically and making it clear they planned to continue with austerity and Brexit and all the other things they’re doing which are damaging to the country as a whole.

My Tory friends support and help fund a project for the homeless not voting Tory would likely have been a lot more useful and would have personally cost them nothing.

Charity is very much part of the ideology yep! Kings of virtue signalling while wilfully ignoring the fact that it’s national policy causing the problem in the first place!

As long as you're distracted by how much tax is paid by someone who earns £20k a year then they hope you won't notice the big boys

Exactly! This was an excellent post @thecakebadge

This thread has highlighted how truly vile left wingers can be “truly vile” colours are showing op?

The very few people I know who’ve voted Tory either:

Completely own it and admit they vote Tory for selfish reasons (relatives - don’t get me started!) No point even trying to engage with them, they’re set in their ways and won’t even listen to more “moderate” Tory voters

Or

Misunderstand what the tories stand for - and I do try and engage with and discuss with them how certain policies work and their effects etc these ones did not vote Tory in the last election as Johnson was just too extreme for them but sadly I think they’ll return to voting Tory if a more “moderate” (less obviously Tory) leader is in place next GE which is likely. I’ll continue discussing with them

Or “don’t do politics” and simply vote for who their parents or partner/spouse votes for without even attempting to understand the policies - I know voters for other parties like this too. I don’t understand it, pointless votes really. I try to engage with them on a level that suits them when they’re open to it.

Wanting to protect your finances and family and give your family the best in life doesn’t mean you are automatically a selfish person

Surely that’s pretty much the definition of selfish? Only thinking of yourself and those very close to you (and so if they were in dire straits you’d be expected to and likely not mind too much helping them out)

my parents live next door to a couple who are labour through and through. They campaign, they virtue signal. They live in a 3million pound house, have 4 brand new cars on the drive and throw parties regularly, pissing money down the drain on a weekly basis, claim disability allowance and avoid tax as much as possible, telling my dad new tips on a regular basis. They recently got in trouble for insurance fraud. oh wow!! REALLY showing your TRUE colours now op!

Anyone notice how op studiously avoided responding to comments on major tax avoiding multi-nationals but JUMPS on a labour voter who personally probably simply takes advantage of the very same loopholes most Tory voters do without a qualm? I’m not saying that neighbours behaviour (if they even exist) is acceptable but to “notice” one persons hypocrisy and ignore far greater and more damaging examples? Come on! Oh and if “disability allowance” means as I suspect DLA (which is mostly phased out now anyway) well David Cameron claimed that! It’s a non means tested benefit to cover the costs of being disabled.

My dad in comparison, has all the material things they have, yet spends his evenings doing online tutoring for free, for students at all schools, state and private, and at the weekend works driving delivering food to vulnerable families who cannot go out during the pandemic

Tutoring costs him NOTHING but his time and I’d bet he gets enjoyment out of it too, hardly purely altruistic. Re food delivering define “vulnerable”? Because vulnerable in terms of at risk of covid doesn’t mean those families aren’t otherwise privileged and “his sort” I suspect! Probably friends? Neighbours?

We are all just a car accident or a diagnosis away from being one of those vulnerable people. absolutely !

It’s easy to defend ethical choices. Give it a go. yep!

There were times in the past I’d have definitely personally been better under a Tory govt despite my start in life. Would never ever be able to bring myself to do so, it would have been a betrayal of ALL those who had helped me get to that point - working class parents, state school teachers, working or at best lower middle class small business employers who had taken a chance on me and trained me well and sent me on courses they paid for, nhs workers who’d kept me fit and well until that point...

The bedroom tax came into stop people living in homes, funded by the state, that were too big for them and needed by others. if you believe that I’ve a tower in London for sale if you’re interested?

Yes how someone votes may not say EVERYTHING about them but it says a LOT and usually fairly accurately in my experience.

Regarding new labour policies - myself and many others were never under ANY illusion that Blair’s govt was really a Labour govt! It flew under labours flag but their policies and ideology were way out of step with traditional labour beliefs and aims.

Don't confuse charitable acts with having charitable values.

Spot on!!

I think we should always remember that at some point there was adult education available in a town that you could get to, there were dance classes and libraries. There were places for kids with mental health problems. My sister took her daughter to sure start, it was nice that it was open to all mums. We had so much that our children don't have now. I'm not calling Tories cunts but why cut services that make society better?

Op I'm sure when your dad identifies as a Tory he's one who thinks that social mobility Is still a thing.

Taking politics out of it for a moment. You have a close friend who basically knows she’s saying your dad is a cunt. She knows what she’s doing and that you will feel upset and feel torn. She doesn’t sound like a friend to me.

**I’ve noticed that it seems ok on social media and in conversation to being vulgar about tories/anyone who aligns themselves with any Tory policies, yet it is unacceptable to ever do the same if you are a Tory talking about a labour supporter. In fact I am yet to hear a Tory speak so awfully about someone who votes for another party'

Really? Have you never read any of the daily mail comments? Here is a random example of tories and right wingers talking about the protesters in the US.

@SheepandCow did you read my post? I work with children leaving the care system. Do you think they had a lovely home life? They suffer from trauma. Many have witnessed, or been on the receiving end of abuse. They’ve been neglected. Over 80% of our service users have additional support needs. They go on to form relationships that are at best unhealthy and at worst a risk to their lives. Please show me your source that “many” homeless people have just been unable to pay their rent and have no additional support needs?

In our adult services, addiction and mental health issues are rife. They go hand in hand with street homelessness and it takes a lot of multi agency work to get these people into a tenancy they can maintain long term, especially when the agencies they need so desperately are not longer there. It is naive of you to dismiss this as a social housing only issue.

I understand where you are coming from. I have a close family member who also despises the Tories and this disgust extends to everyone in the South of England/London. She is often very offensive about my partners profession. Other members of my family think the same, but direct their anger towards the tories in general and assume we have the same view.

I didn’t vote Tory as I don’t like this Tory government, but generally I lean more towards their Policies. In saying that I do not like ALL their policies, but people see it as such a black and white issue.

But how would your friend feel if you branded her and all the other Labour supporters she associates with an anti-Semite ?

@Graphista

CEOs are paid more because of the risk involved in their job. If things go wrong they could go to jail, being sacked would be the least of their worries.

If everyone was paid the same what incentive would their be to have these “big” jobs? Some of these big jobs deliver huge profits which give big returns for HMRC. If everyone was paid the same or around about the same then we would lose talent. These people would go elsewhere where they are well paid for their skills.

The majority of low paying jobs do not involve high stakes and if people find them stressful they should work in their resilience. In saying that, if the stress comes from living on the breadline then that is something entirely different.

I also think when people decide to procreate they shouldn’t be calculating how much support they get from the government to decide if they can afford to start a family, because the goal posts can change and different Governments make different policies that can affect income. The support net should be there for people who’s circumstances change.... domestic abuse or a loss of partner etc. Not self-made changes of circumstances. I often see threads in here calculating if they can afford another child while factoring in benefits revived from the Government. This isn’t right, how can we support those who have very unfortunate changes of circumstances in this way ? There is not enough money to support everyone and still have great schools, functioning NHS and all the other provisions.

I would never (if I had a vote in the UK) vote Tory, but I can see the difference between Tory voters (I have many among friends and family, lovely people, we respectfully agree to disagree on some things and actually agree on many others) and the Westminster Tories, who are amoral, corrupt and incompetent. It's perfectly possible not to hate Tories whilst hating this government.

People vote for very many different reasons. The vast majority are not bad people. I'm broadly on the left politically, but I do despair of extremists on both sides who seem to thrive on divisiveness.

I agree with @bidl

I think it's easy to brand tories as scum. Put us in a box, it's comfortable to compartmentalise people. The reality is there are shades of grey.

Having lived abroad, the UK is still very socialist. Even as a Conservative voter in the UK, I was a screaming lefty by US standards (I believe in a welfare state, I believe in the NHS, I am pro choice, I support NATO and so on).

I get on very well with staunch socialists, and whilst we don't always agree, I can see why the think the way they do. Makes sense to me! In turn, I explain why I vote the way I vote and they can see my point of view too. In real life my friends and I can debate this stuff. On here it's a race to the bottom.

@bidl Ceos having higher pay levels than lower levels of staff because they have more responsibility etc is one thing, I don't necessarily agree with that but I understand the argument. What IS unacceptable is the HUGE discrepancy in this! Over 200 times more in some cases.

I stand by saying THAT is vulgar THAT is obscene

It is COMPLETELY unnecessary and unjustified and generally doesn't even include bonuses!

and if people find them [low paid jobs] stressful they should work in their resilience

There speaks someone I suspect either has never had one or not for a bloody long time!

You think working in retail, care work, retail banking etc especially at the moment isn't in itself stressful?! Catch yourself on!

And yes that's IN ADDITION to the stress of being in a low paid job that you fear losing any moment.

The comment re decisions to have dc, well where to start!

The majority of parents ime don't plan to have dc when they're not in a fairly good position financially to do so BUT

1 circumstances change! When I had my dd I was fit, healthy, happily married, employed in a decent paying job and securely housed.

By the time she was 5 I was disabled, seriously mentally ill, divorced, unemployed and had narrowly avoided homelessness (for the 1st time at that point)

Nobody knows what's around the corner

2 not all pregnancies are planned, contraception fails (had that happen myself prior to dd), or people for a variety of reasons (yes carelessness but also poor education/understanding) don't use it effectively, or women are raped/abused and dc are conceived as a result of this. Some will choose to end the pregnancy for financial reasons but it is a highly personal and emotive decision.

3 poorer people shouldn't have the right to procreate withheld from them JUST because they are poor. It is a natural and inherently human desire to procreate

With specific regard to state benefits supplementing employee income - well frankly if employers were paying an ACTUAL living wage so that those in full time employment didn't NEED their incomes supplemented AND Jobs were being created then this would be a non issue really!

State subsidies of employees aren't really supporting the recipients! They're supporting often highly profitable, multi national companies (inc the highly paid aforementioned ceos) to UNDER pay their employees but STILL report millions even billions in profits - on which they avoid paying tax as much as possible!

With regard to childcare costs we have among the highest in the world in relation to pay, which is utterly ridiculous!

If a govt wants and expects parents especially women to work full time relatively shortly after giving birth then they need to acknowledge and accept this really means providing good quality and affordable childcare - and NOT at the expense of usually already low paid childcare staff.

For a country to work well it needs a well supported (policy wise) labour force and we absolutely DO NOT have that in this country, up to and including middle management I'd say!

there is not enough money I'm so so sick of seeing this nonsense excuse!

There IS money!

There is money for:

MPs salaries

MPs expenses - inc but not Ltd to very expensive and expensively outfitted second homes (inc utility bills, council tax for those homes), first class and private transport, designer clothes and shoes, ordinary food and drink costs (up to £25 daily!)

A VERY subsidised food and drink provision in the HoC

A test and trace app that didn't work - £11.8mn so far apparently according to a Tory peer

A bung to dup to prop up the govt £1bn

Hs2 - £170bn so far!!

Chris graylings numerous cock ups! Which is widely believed to be approximately £3bn!

Numerous tax breaks to the already wealthy

Brexit - fuck knows how much even just holding the referendum really cost! Because they haven't exactly been transparent on this!

So please - don't try and say "there is no money"!

There IS they're just IDEOLOGICALLY choosing to spend it elsewhere

OP

The world is on fire. I’m an old school lefty and have had Tory friends and colleagues but things that didn’t matter then do matter now.

Give her a break, she’s had a lifetime of going along with or ignoring the notions of colonialism, inherited wealth, educational inequality, but we’re most of us going backwards now that social mobility has been suppressed. She’s frustrated. You don’t choose your childhood, your education, but don’t imagine it doesn’t matter!

@Graphista YES!!!

[quote FastAndCurious]@SheepandCow did you read my post? I work with children leaving the care system. Do you think they had a lovely home life? They suffer from trauma. Many have witnessed, or been on the receiving end of abuse. They’ve been neglected. Over 80% of our service users have additional support needs. They go on to form relationships that are at best unhealthy and at worst a risk to their lives. Please show me your source that “many” homeless people have just been unable to pay their rent and have no additional support needs?

In our adult services, addiction and mental health issues are rife. They go hand in hand with street homelessness and it takes a lot of multi agency work to get these people into a tenancy they can maintain long term, especially when the agencies they need so desperately are not longer there. It is naive of you to dismiss this as a social housing only issue.[/quote]
I never dismissed the things you're talking about as social housing issue only.
But what you are talking about is just one minority cause of homelessness today.

It's very offensive to keep on perpetuating the stereotyped myth (and it's a very convenient myth for politicians - especially the landlords amongst them).

Look at the furore around furlough. People saying they couldn't pay their rent or mortgage without it.

Then remember the many people made redundant or ill before Covid. How do you think these non furloughed people pay their rent or mortgage? The answer is, if you can't work it out, they often can't. So they become homeless.

Furlough is an open acknowledgment by government and general public that benefits don't pay for housing, food, and bills.

It's that simple. Homelessness is not confined to certain groups.

Social housing alone is not a panacea but it would go a very long way towards solving most of the problems. Including the social issues you talk of. Stable homes in settled communities - which is what mass social housing would provide - helps prevent the consequences of fractured society.

@FastAndCurious
Of course social housing - done properly - would include plenty of supported housing schemes. For those people who struggle to live independently.

the loss of a private tenancy being the leading cause of homelessness

The above is from Shelter:
www.google.com/amp/s/blog.shelter.org.uk/2019/04/ending-unfair-evictions-will-help-prevent-homelessness/amp/

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/aug/18/no-fault-evictions-hundreds-of-families-homeless-each-week

It's nothing to do with drugs or mental illness (as in being unable to cope with a tenancy, rather than being unable to afford a tenancy because benefits are too low).

Yes some people need extra support. But that is not the case for the many people who are perfectly capable of maintaining a tenancy - if they could only afford one.

Maintaining the stereotyped myth of homeless people is a gift for those who wish to downplay the housing crisis and deny it's causes (low wages and high private housing costs, lack of benefits safety net).

Don’t confuse charitable acts with charitable values.Wow.
This is a known and well studied difference between conservatives and the left. There are reasons for both approaches. Studies have shown that those with similar incomes but different ‘ values ‘ give time and money differently. Those voting conservative will give more time and money while those on a similar income to the left feel that their values are enough and are not as generous with either.
To the main question though, YANBU. Nobody should be calling anybody the c word and assuming a moral high ground. The conservatives have attracted working class voters and BAME voters in large numbers . It is not goodies vs baddies. Personally, I had never voted Tory until the last election when I was so afraid of the prospect of Corbyn gaining power. Call me a C if you like but I may call you a C for overlooking Anti Semitism on an organised and intimidating scale.

And I forgot to add, I won’t actually be calling anyone any names because I have friends of different persuasions and they are all essentially decent people trying their best but with different views on the best way forward.

YANBU. The hard left are vile in a way none of my Tory friends are about Labour voters / MPs.