Labour friend awful about tories

[tabicae]

NC as probably outing. I have a very close friend who is there for me though everything really and I am for them. We have always avoided politics and have had very different backgrounds. Given what’s been going on recently I’m politics, it’s been hard to avoid the topic.

Whilst I personally have no massive political leaning and can see both sides without coming down massively on either one, she knows that I was brought up in a Tory household and although I have never disclosed who I would vote for, she knows I am on the fence about things and like some Tory polices and some labour. A lot of my childhood was based around things she seems to strongly dislike and is open about...private schools, inheritance, private health, second homes etc.

Anyway..getting to the point. She has become VERY vocal about these things. Slagging off private education and people who went to them (always careful to say ‘there are exceptions’). Being critical of second homes yet happily staying in my parents second homes free of charge for a holiday. And it goes on like that.

She has recently become quite vulgar about tories, calling them and Boris c*nts, etc. I know I feel defensive about this as my dad is a very generous, caring man and he voted for Boris. It feels quite personal.

I’ve noticed that it seems ok on social media and in conversation to being vulgar about tories/anyone who aligns themselves with any Tory policies, yet it is unacceptable to ever do the same if you are a Tory talking about a labour supporter. In fact I am yet to hear a Tory speak so awfully about someone who votes for another party. I feel like her comments are getting in between our friendship and whilst I always knew we differed on this topic it has never ever been an issue between us.

I’m not sure what to say really...maybe she’s always had this view of me and my family and is only now vocalising it? Would you address it?

@SheepandCow

The 'bedroom tax' (a Gordon Brown idea, I believe) has had a devastating impact on the disabled - especially those who need 1 bedroom homes. It completely depleted an already very limited stock of 1 and 2 bedroom homes.

It was a labour idea that was floated in the late nineties, I think? But labour vetoed it.

Please try and think about this in a day to day sense rather than abstract ideological voting

Your dad might volunteer his time to do kind things that he doesn't have to for the deserving poor but his vote was an expression of his ideology, nothing abstract about it.

I'm not defending the Conservatives for bedroom tax btw. It's just very important that Labour's large role in destroying the safety net is not forgotten.

All guilty parties need to be acknowledged.

Like I said earlier. It was a Labour government who launched the war on the disabled. Remember, Cameron self indentified as 'the heir to Blair'. He (and Osborne) saw the public acceptance of Labour's attacks on the disabled - and therefore felt encouraged to simply continue down the same road.

I guess she won’t be able to do it anymore when the new hate bill comes into place.

So, Tories volunteer to help the vulnerable, yet elect the party that is the worst for them. I suppose that's one way to ensure you can carry on being charitable.

It's like a fireman setting fire to his house, just so he can help put it out.

A great many people feel frustrated by the current situation and so shout into the abyss.

Here's my hypothesis. If you cant understand the other person's/party's viewpoint, then thats your fault for not listening hard enough. I couldnt understand how my side lost Brexit. And then I realised that was on me for not listening to other viewpoints and dismissing them as racist/xenophobic. If you cant understand your friends frustrations then you havent listened. It sounds as if she hasnt listened to you either.

Are you interested in her pov or do you want her to stop? Just ask her not to discuss politics and change the subject.

@FastAndCurious

I work for a homeless charity. Children leaving care who have nowhere to go when they reach 18 mainly. Please thank your Tory friends for volunteering at places like ours. We really need those helpers after the government for which they voted, you know Boris and his chums, cut over £1m of funding for our service alone last year.

You need to open your eyes OP.

It was the last Labour governments that started cutting housing benefits. And also, when Blair got in there was still a fair amount of social housing left across the UK (as opposed to only limited areas today). He not only didn't end right to buy, he enthusiastically encouraged the buy to let housing bubble.

This is not an issue caused by the conservatives alone.

Let us not all forget that some of the people who are most openly 'charitable' i.e. spending ostentatiously at fancy gala fundraising dinners, auctions for ridiculous prizes, funding places at posh private schools (vom) are also the same people who do everything they can to get out of paying taxes and spend large sums on expensive accountants to ensure they get to keep as much of their wealth as possible.

Don't confuse charitable acts with having charitable values.

"I work for a homeless charity. Children leaving care who have nowhere to go when they reach 18 mainly. Please thank your Tory friends for volunteering at places like ours. "

... don't disagree with your sentiment but care leavers under 21 are given priority for housing assistance. They would be eligible for temporary accommodation while awaiting council. ?

@SheepandCow I’m not sure why you are responding to my post with sound bites about social housing?

Homelessness has increased 250% in the last ten years. It’s not solved by sticking someone in a council house. Most homeless people have additional support needs that need to be met before they can maintain a tenancy. Drug and alcohol support, mental health support...services that have either closed due to lack of funding or had funding cut to the bone under Tory rule.

Your friend has not personally attacked you or your Dad. She has attacked "Tories" generally and their values.
Charities exist because the poorest are unsupported and the richest get richer.
I suspect your friend is quite nice and what you are hearing is the bits about your values that make you feel uncomfortable which makes you perceive it as a personal attack. It's not.

Tbh your friend seems very resented. Usually, it is the result of reading the Guardian and The Independent.

I'd stop offering the use of the holiday homes. Hypocritical to complain about second home owners but take advantage knowing one!

OP YANBU. After the last general election Jonathan Pie did a great rant about this basically telling the Left that they had to stop the name calling and actually engage in proper political discourse or they would never win an election. It’s worth watching if you can find it.

Your friend is obviously not particularly bright if she can’t put across her point without using such obscenities. I would tell her how it makes you feel and then decide from her reaction whether you wish to continue the friendship. The fact that she slags off second homes and then uses your dad’s is hilarious.

But I would say that this thread absolutely proves your point about engaging politically. Think about it people - you do not persuade people to your way of thinking by being unpleasant to them. It doesn’t work.

I ended a friendship in part (one of many reasons but certainly a significant contributor) with someone who is a very vocal and active Tory member. Honestly, I just couldn't remain friends with something who was actively against everything I get up for every morning.

So can understand, in some way, how politics can be so divisive in a friendship, really for both you and your friend.

@tabicae how can you possibly say that Tory voters never say or use bad language about labour voters?

You have only said this from your experience to prove your point! Completely personal to you.

I know plenty of Tory voters who speak all kinds of vile comments about labour voters

Just because your dad is lovely doesn't mean all are

@thecakebadge

Let us not all forget that some of the people who are most openly 'charitable' i.e. spending ostentatiously at fancy gala fundraising dinners, auctions for ridiculous prizes, funding places at posh private schools (vom) are also the same people who do everything they can to get out of paying taxes and spend large sums on expensive accountants to ensure they get to keep as much of their wealth as possible.

Don't confuse charitable acts with having charitable values.

That's true. Philanthropy is often (obviously not always) just another word for legal tax avoidance. 'Tax efficient' spending.

When the election was coming up I went to my boyfriend at the time's house for Sunday lunch. His mum is very very pro Labour. The area has had a Tory MP since before I was born and fwiw I think he's very good, and votes against most of the shittier Tory policies. His mum starts talking politics and getting quite animated ranty and was trying to goad me into saying which way I would vote.

I bit in the end, and said simply that unfortunately it was a two horse race and neither Boris nor Corbyn was a good choice. I said honestly that I couldn't bring myself to vote for either of them.

She then launched into a diatribe that I simply had to choose because of what the Suffragettes had gone through to give women the vote. It's an argument you see a lot on MN too. I held my tongue out of politeness but my view is that the Suffragettes gave us the choice to vote. And also that politics at the dinner table is crass

The general stereotype is that Tories are racist, homophobic, greedy... Whilst labour supporters are lazy grabby spongers, or champagne socialists that simply virtue signal from their Chelsea tractor your friend needs to take a step back if she can't have a reasoned debate without lowering herself to name calling and getting worked up.

[quote FastAndCurious]@SheepandCow I’m not sure why you are responding to my post with sound bites about social housing?

Homelessness has increased 250% in the last ten years. It’s not solved by sticking someone in a council house. Most homeless people have additional support needs that need to be met before they can maintain a tenancy. Drug and alcohol support, mental health support...services that have either closed due to lack of funding or had funding cut to the bone under Tory rule.[/quote]
That's simply not true. I find it worrying that somebody who works in homelessness is perpetuating that very out of date stereotype.

A proportion of homeless people have additional needs (which should be given) - but many more simply can't keep up with the housing bubble.

One of the main reasons today for increased homelessness is people who've been given no fault Section 21 evictions - often because they could no longer afford the high rents. Not because of drugs or mental health issues - but because of redundancy or a wage drop or illness.

Wages and benefits haven't kept up with housing costs. That's nothing to do with any personal issues.

Social housing is very relevant. The lack of it - of affordable housing - is the reason why so many people are homeless.

You came to the wrong place to have a proper discussion about this Op.

I don't know how anyone can claim the moral high ground while name calling and insulting people they don't even know, simply because they ticked a different box in the polls.

This is not a way to change minds. It's the way to entrench people and stop them considering another point of view.

Tolerance, empathy and reasoned debate is the way to go, whichever side you're on, if you want to influence people.
I've seen the damage Hilary Clinton did by calling those on the other side 'despicables'. That changed no minds and simply gave more people reason not to vote for her. Personal insults do not bring people to your side.

That's a very good post @saraclara

OP, I agree that it isn’t as black and white as all tories are evil and all Labour are pure and good. People of all political persuasions can be pleasant and polite in everyday life, or complete arseholes. And there are plenty of hypocrites about.

However.

I, and many others, believe the very heart of what tories stand for is morally corrupt - it’s about taking care of your own interests at the expense of society, hoarding wealth and being able to buy privilege (through things like private school). Therefore I do believe that every Tory voter, as nice and personable or funny and kind as they may be in other areas, is at their core, of a very different moral stance to me, and not a nice one.

You say wanting to look after your own interests and finances to look out for your family isn’t selfish - in many people’s opinion it’s the absolute height of selfishness. It keeps wealth within a small group of people and ensures the rest go without. How is it fair that most of the wealth and land in the country is owned by about 1% of the population? You may say “they earned and inherited it, they’re entitled to it”, and fine, that’s what you believe, but it’s a belief I find deeply unpalatable and unpleasant, hence why I’d never vote for a party with that ideology.

People who’ve had their benefits cut, been affected by the change to universal credit and possibly lost their homes over it, young people coming out of care with no support and nowhere to go, hospital staff run ragged by lack of funding, mental health patients who can’t access care they need because of lack of funding, several things being utterly fucked up by privatisation such as the DWP contracting out some of its functions or the abomination that was test and trace - the appalling inaction on the cladding scandal post-Grenfell and a housing minister who won’t do anything to help people affected... just a few examples there of some people for whom politics had a direct and devastating impact on their lives. I can fully understand why their anger and despair might lead them to call Tory voters cunts. I myself earn more than average but I’m far more concerned about ensuring a better society for those people, and everyone less fortunate than me, than I am about keeping hold of my wealth.

If that’s not enough of a polite argument for you then I don’t know what else to say.

If youre left wing and hate the Tories. Why not put your pounts across in a civilised way. That means practicing what you preach , Care generosity of spirit and understanding.

and The Tories know all about generosity care and understanding, don't they.

Not a Tory fan (understatement) but my family are. We have many a heated debate about it. It's good to exchange views to a point because occasionally it can increase understanding even where you disagree.
I would tell your friend that you find some of her comments offensive and explain exactly why.
If she can't hack it then she shouldn't be so strident about her own views and hypocritical by staying in your parents' second home...