Soft play situation - who is in the right?

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

Two mums meet at soft play with their 8yo girls - MumA & ChildA, and MumB & ChildB.

The slot is 2.5 hours, and after 2 hours ChildA comes to the adults crying because ChildB isn't playing with her anymore. ChildB approaches the table and MumA says "ChildA is upset because she says you won't play with her." ChildB responds "Yes I just want to play on my own for a bit". MumA says it's not nice to ditch your friend. MumB says that ChildB often gets tired of company and likes to do her own thing sometimes, and she's been taught to speak up if she ever feels like having alone time.

ChildA spends the rest of the session crying while ChildB goes to play on her own. ChildA says to her at the end that she isn't a good friend, which upsets ChildB.

Who was in the right, and should either mum have done anything differently?

@GlummyMcGlummerson

As a teacher I never make a child play with someone if they don’t want to

Teacher here too - I also agree that no one has to include people they don't want to include. Some schools equate exclusion with bullying but I think that's a dangerous precedent to set

I don't think children should be forced to include people they don't want to, but it's a sad world we live in when kindness and empathy on how it feels to be on the outside and left out is not encouraged to be shown. On the other hand the issue of boundaries also needs to be dealt with here and I really feel that's at the root of the problem. Both mums where so concerned about how they and their own child felt they forgot the bigger picture which is we all coexist and other people's feelings should be taken into consideration. By both siding with their own and their child's feelings (however right they feel they might be and however valid they may be) they missed an opportunity to teach both children empathy and communication.

You need to start teaching your daughter that other peoples feelings matter too.

I do teach her that - not sure why posters to think I don't. I simply tell her that her feelings about her boundaries matter more than other people wanting to step into her boundaries.

I have to agree with @Bluntness100
Was there any other children child B could have played with (not toddlers, more her own age?)
If not, then I can see why she would have been a bit sad. Sobbing for ages is a bit OTT but your daughter, having seen how upset her friend was, could have come up to her and offered to go back in to the play area together? She may have not really wanted to, but life is all about things you don’t want to do and doing something kind not for your own benefit.
I guess though, it all also depends on if the other child was annoying yours through the rest of the 2 hours? Was she happy before of finding the other child stifling? If it’s the latter then I would limit the kids meet ups with your friend in future and just meet the two of you

@GlummyMcGlummerson

Child A, needs to learn that if your friend does not want to play for a bit, then she should find other friends for a while or entertain herself and child B should learn that if you go somewhere with someone you should stay with them, and play and it’s not nice to upset your friend

That's kind of contradictory? A child should have the right to play alone but they should also not leave their friend? It can't be both!

To me this says there is no right or wrong, there are natural consequences to their actions.

I understand and agree with you on this. But, in this instance, who was threatening her bodily autonomy? No-one. I would suggest that you are catastrophising - that you would have to be, to link that statement with this situation. Her patience was being tried a little. Those experiences are not in the same category

Bodily autonomy isn't just about being physically touched, it's about someone being in your space when you don't want them to.

My child does this often. Will start playing with someone and then go off and play alone. She likes to do this and prefers her own company. Doesnt mean anything is wrong and I dont think parents should intervene. Its part of learning about friendships and developing at a young age. It is basically playground drama in front of the parents.

Child A said a nasty comment because she couldn't deal with Child B not giving her attention. Its life. Wait until she is a teen and then an adult in the workplace. Oh the drama!!!

@MessAllOver

Teacher here too - I also agree that no one has to include people they don't want to include. Some schools equate exclusion with bullying but I think that's a dangerous precedent to set

I'm amazed at this. Children are legally obliged to be at school. There's no escape from that environment for them, no deciding that they're rather retreat to the safety of home. Do you mean that you allow some children to exist, day after day, in an environment where they're left out, lonely, excluded, humiliated and have their confidence and self-worth undermined and destroyed? Because that's what exclusion does.

I agree with @MessAllOver’s response to this—this is absolutely not a lesson I would be ok with children learning. Children should be happy to play together and include everyone, unless there is a major reason why not—e.g. bullying or a child being mean. Teaching children that it’s ok to just exclude others because you feel like it is massively innapropriate.

So if a child is out with 2 cousins during a family do, she can just decide to play with one and ignore the other? No way would I be ok with that.

Or in the school ground, leave one child excluded when the others play in groups? Nope, I would expect any child to be taught that the right thing to do is to ask the excluded child to join their group.

There’s having boundaries and then there’s being prickly and purposefully teaching people to not respond with empathy. The minor inconvenience of including someone who wouldn’t be you first choice is something children should do in school, every time.

Do you mean that you allow some children to exist, day after day, in an environment where they're left out, lonely, excluded, humiliated and have their confidence and self-worth undermined and destroyed? Because that's what exclusion does.

It's pretty grim isn't it.

I think you’re right OP. I wish I wasn’t raised as such a people pleaser, many times I’ve gone along with things that make me unhappy just to keep the peace. I’m trying to change that but it’s hard when it’s been built into you from a young age

Me too, I can't count the times I've put myself at a discomfort for people that I barely know or don't even like because I was raised above all to put the feelings of other first and foremost. Like you I'm finding it hard to unpick, but I'm getting there!

If I could wave a magic wand and be more assertive, but have the disadvantage of losing a few people along the way, I'd do it - people pleasers don't exactly "keep" people either. I certainly think I wouldn't have been in a shit marriage or some shit jobs if I wasn't such a people pleaser!

@GlummyMcGlummerson - so, you want to empower your dd to speak up, so long as that doesn’t involve saying to her mother she would like to go home now, because she’s not an adult and can’t drive herself .

@Sittinbythesea

What we don’t now is how B spoke to A. If she said “I don’t want to play with you anymore”, which seems likely as she’s been encouraged to think that’s a reasonable thing to do, then she was rude and unkind. Totally understandable that A would be upset at being ditched by B, however B phrased it. How would an 8 yo not be upset at their friend having had enough of them. OP if you want to to do this kind of thing again I’d say 1.30hr max, the girls don’t sound like they are friends - A will probably be reluctant to meet up again. It’s fine to want your own space, but not to upset people who haven’t done anything wrong. Your talk of boundaries etc isn’t really relevant in this situation- you arranged for them to play together! If A was constantly turning up uninvited at your house then fair enough for your dd to say no, but not in this situation. You are doing her no favours by teaching her to stand up for herself without teaching her when it is / isn’t appropriate.

She said (according to them both) "I just want to play on my own now". Or some derivative

Yeah. What would you do if your DDsaid “I want to go now. I’ve had enough. You’re ignoring my boundary take me home” when you wanted to sit with coffee and relax chatting

@TeenPlusTwenties. I can see the distinction and perhaps was a bit too heated in my response. It was this I really objected to: Some schools equate exclusion with bullying but I think that's a dangerous precedent to set

Exclusion is one of the worst kinds of bullying in a school environment. It's insidious and humiliating. It essentially reduces the excluded child to nothing, a ghost. They are required physically to be there but no one notices them or talks to them. It's as if they don't really exist and their attempts to participate are often treated with ridicule and hostility so slowly they learn to retreat further and further into themselves.

Yes, it's fine to say that children can choose who they play with or to play by themselves, but the truth (which we all know, really) is that the same children are excluded over and over again.

That's fine, but how would you feel if your DD went to play with another little girl who ignored her after a bit and, for example, read a book for the rest of the playdate? I bet you'd be telling your DD that she doesn't have to put herself in a situation where she feels neglected, uncomfortable and unhappy again. Well, if I were Child A's mum, that's what I'd be telling my child

Actually I wouldn't of tell her to respect her friends space and go play with someone else or on her own.

I also agree that no one has to include people they don't want to include. Some schools equate exclusion with bullying but I think that's a dangerous precedent to set it usually is in fact a form of bullying, in fact, where you have some children persuading others to gang up.
In my dc's class, the child being excluded changes day to day, though there are usually the same children involved in leading the gang. Where children are being excluded because of their own behaviour then that child usually hugely benefits from being taught some social skills. The school needs to be on the case in these examples, whatever the cause of the exclusion.

@MessAllOver

Well if that’s the case I think play dates should become with a caveat of

‘We will meet you there buy at some point they may want to play by themselves and not with your child’

I think that would only be fair so the other child and parents can decide whether it’s worth going or not.

Yes, that's a good suggestion.

Why don't you make it clear to the other parent in future that your DD may decide at some point that she's had enough of their child's company so they can be prepared for it? For example, bringing a favourite book or something to soften the blow and amuse their child when your child suddenly doesn't want them anymore. Or choosing a different playdate altogether.

I'm going to before we meet up at half term, we're going to a museum and will message my friend beforehand to say maybe warn ChildA that my DD might want alone time for a bit - and I'll say to DD it's fine if you do but be aware ChildA might be hurt as a result.

Unfortunately I have found in life that a lot of people who consider themselves “people pleasers” are actually passive aggressive constantly and abruptly rude sometimes. It’s not a good communication style—assertion is borne of quiet confidence, consideration of feelings/knock on effects and reasonable flexibility.

I think proper assertiveness while considering the feelings of others in this situation would have been: your daughter to tell the other girl she was getting a bit tired, go talk to you and explain she needs some time out, rest with all of you for a bit and then go do 5 mins play together again at the end. Or for her to ask you how long was left, and say is it ok for us to do 10 mins play then end this as I’m tired. Or to just tell you the situation and ask you to help make decision for her.

As it was, she has been shown to take a decision entirely in her own interest without thought to others, and had a hard lessons that the consistance if this is being called out and being called a bad friend. Which was all avoidable, if you taught her a more collegiate way fo engaging.

@GlummyMcGlummerson

That's fine, but how would you feel if your DD went to play with another little girl who ignored her after a bit and, for example, read a book for the rest of the playdate? I bet you'd be telling your DD that she doesn't have to put herself in a situation where she feels neglected, uncomfortable and unhappy again. Well, if I were Child A's mum, that's what I'd be telling my child

Actually I wouldn't of tell her to respect her friends space and go play with someone else or on her own.

Or you could tell her to respect her friends space but also to respect herself and find friends that don't abandon her halfway through a playdate!! Respect works both ways. Really both children could have benefited from explaining their feelings to each other then we could really see which friend (hopefully both) would be happy to validate their friends feelings without completely abandoning their own principles. Isn't that what we should be encouraging children to do?

@Frdd

I am a single mum. I was a single mum from my youngest was just turned 4.

I still had to recognise that my kids and my friends kids wouldn’t always gel.

And? I do recognise that but I won't end a friendship over it

@Sittinbythesea

OP - next time why not chat with your dd about some ways of saying things that aren’t rude or potentially hurtful. She could have said to the friend “let’s go and see our mums” or “I want a drink” or “let’s see what or brothers are doing” or “I wonder if it’s time to go home, let’s ask mum”. And then explained to you that she was ‘tired’ and wanted to go home. I do think in this situation it was either stay and play or make an excuse and leave - you need to teach her these social graces.

I really don't think teaching my DD to lie about her feelings is teaching her social grace.

@Sittinbythesea

It is a bit much for you to talk about boundaries etc and then put her in a situation where she has to spend 2 and half hours at soft play with someone who isn’t really a friend because you want to meet your friend. What will you do when she asserts her autonomy/ boundaries by saying that she won’t go?

They are friends, usually good friends, it's just she wanted alone time at the end.

@tinty said So i will say this, 2.5 hours is probably too long for a soft play session and both parents should have resolved the situation by leaving when the children started falling out.

I completely agree. Why on earth did either of you stay and watch Child A cry?

Where did I say you had to end a friendship over it. Don’t put words in my mouth. That’s manipulative and nasty.

[quote Walkaround]@GlummyMcGlummerson - so, child A has to suck up being neglected by her father and ignored by her mother so that she can talk to her friend, and ignored by the child she’s been dumped with to entertain her?[/quote]
She wasn't ignored by her mother - but with respect while it's sad it isn't my DD's problem to fix

@GlummyMcGlummerson - it seems a good compromise to warn your child that her behaviour may upset others. I can’t help finding it funny, though, how you justify rudeness by saying it’s basically the only way relatively powerless children can stand up for themselves, because they have to do what adults tell them and be where adults expect them to be, as the adults are the only ones with the power to get them out of a situation they don’t like without them resorting to rudeness.