Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

Yes the people that were directly involved. The father and daughter. Who else would I mean or are you trying to pretend I'm some kind of Nigel fave again.

The daughter got her teacher killed. As did her father. She was clearly asked to leave to avoid offence and stayed. Her father then escalated it publicallly to people he knew would do something extreme. Did he know the teacher would be killed? Probably not. Does he care? Probably not.

Why come to secular/Christian Europe to spread terror if the culture is so offensive to you, when you could just go to any number of Islamic countries that share your ideology if you are so devout?

Here you go. Dad sent texts to the killer.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/20/beheaded-teacher-samuel-paty-to-get-legion-of-honour-france-says-minister

@MarriedtoDaveGrohl

I agree with what you’re saying but wanted to check you didn’t mean Muslims in general, which is understandable considering some of the language used in your previous posts.

@monstermancs

History and politics.

Islamic extremists carry out terrorism in Islamic countries too. Muslims in Islamic countries are not going to agree with extremist beliefs any more than Muslims in European countries.

France upholds the liberty of expression and it's a good thing for all of us. Charlie Hebdo is in no way the voice of the élite, and the right to satirise is fundamental to a democracy and a free, democratic press. Rather Charlie Hebdo than the daily fucking mail.

[quote mangoesforever]@Trut

Pretty sure when your religion preaches segregation of women from men, encouraging women to stay at home as much as possible, to cover themselves up, to ask permission from their husbands....then the men in your community are far more likely to be arse holes. [/quote]
I have no idea what their ‘religion’ teaches. I do know that people are simply individuals.

For example, Harvey Weinstein is a deeply misogynistic sicko. As is Epstein. Nothing to do with the colour of their skin or religion

And these made me feel sick too. Some men are predators, Let’s not blame religion for it.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/10/matzneff-scandal-france-consent-literary-establishment

[quote WelcomeToManderley]@silentpool

Of course they are the lowest of the low, I would challenge anyone that thinks otherwise. The terrorists who come to the west never come here to live comfortably.

Someone once said to me “unless you’ve never had freedom and opportunity, you don’t truly know what it feels like and how far you would be willing to go to find it for the ones you love.”

A lot of Muslim countries are completely corrupt, not due to the majority religion (except where there’s genocide of certain sects happening) but due to its history, governments and political issues.[/quote]
Well if this is the case and they are coming from failed or poorly run states, would this not be the opportunity to reflect on what has gone wrong, as opposed to bringing cultural aspects of the religion, which may have added to the issue, along with them (ethnic prejudices, poor treatment of women, tendency towards corruption etc)? I don't agree that you can ignore cultural issues, when it comes to discussing failed states ( I have lived in a number of less developed countries FYI) as it is certainly a factor. I think if you are an immigrant, you need to be honest with yourself as to why you came to UK/Europe i.e acknowledging that my homeland wasn't perfect because of x,y or z and seek to take advantage of the improvement in your situation, in a positive way. I am quite open with people that I consider the UK to be vastly superior to my home country in a number of ways.

And this www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/oct/17/he-wanted-to-control-me-completely-the-models-who-accuse-gerald-marie-of-sexual-assault

@Trut this thread is not about trying to point out that bad things happen in Western countries too. We are aware they do. Let's not deflect.

[quote silentpool]@Trut this thread is not about trying to point out that bad things happen in Western countries too. We are aware they do. Let's not deflect.[/quote]
How am I deflecting? Either everyone are individuals and responsible for their behaviour or no one is, and we inflict collective punishment on whatever shared characteristics we consider relevant. As far as I know, no one has collectively punished white men/Christianity for Epstein or Weinstein or the other mass sexual offenders? They are seen as simply individuals

Before I post this I want to state that I do not condone terrorism or any violent actions in any form, as this post could possibly be read in more than one way.

——————

Talking about France specifically - there are people within and outside of France who hold resentment towards the country for the suffering caused at their hands in the past, a lot of which is still very evident in countries today.

I think this provides a very good foundation for Islamic radicalisation. The powers that be in the certain countries that fund radicalisation off the back of political issues are never going to carry out attacks themselves. They find people who hold resentment, work hard to deepen that resentment and then convince them they will be fighting on behalf of God and his followers who have suffered deeply because of the actions of whichever country they’re focusing on. There are still major political issues today, after radicalisation all it takes is for someone to whisper in their ear “look how despite everything that they have done, they mock us” and they will be absolutely convinced that brutal justice needs to be served. They are able to manipulate them to think any school of thought.

It runs so much deeper than a terrorist deciding that he feels offended by caricatures or western values and randomly beheading people to teach society a lesson, these extremists have been expertly trained/brainwashed to attack due to political reasons that civilians (and I think sometimes the extremists too) are completely unaware of.

Or Jewish, as wei stein is, I guess. I truly think it depends on the person and their own biases. If you see people as individuals or see them through some ‘group’ lens. I tend to see everyone as individuals, just as I see my self as an individual. None of my characteristics fully define me or determine my behaviours. I am uniquely myself 😊

@silentpool

In a lot of corrupt, failed states civilians don’t have a say or any power, if you protest you may end up harmed. Most usually recognise the need for change (and what those changes need to be) within the country but the governments do not work or care for the people.

I read a post on another thread written by an immigrant who said she had never integrated within the UK, she had no intention to and that she was here for purely economical reasons. A fair amount of immigrants are in countries for safety and economic reasons, they are grateful for opportunities and freedom, but they don’t necessarily respect the country due to its history (which is vastly different from not respecting western values and cultures, I don’t feel this is prevalent as some suggest).

Yes agree, Welcome but it is hard to understand why some of them don't have any gratitude

@WelcomeToManderley, I don't really have an issue with that as they will be contributing by having a job. I do think they should respect this country though, as it is because of its history and culture (good & bad), that they have access to the safety, security and opportunities. It goes back to my point about acknowledging that you've come here for a reason and that reason was due to failings at home. It shows a lack of self awareness to look down on this place when you've come here to better yourself and there should certainly be gratitude for the opportunity.

A call has gone out on twitter to kill Asians in France.
The replies to that tweet are calling for Chinese people in the 13th Arr to be killed.
My DD is in Paris and is trying to get back to UK before lockdown.
I am really, really scared. Her job is gone because the restaurant where she works has closed down today. Everyone is very frightened.

@ChineseMum

I’m so sorry, you must be so frightened. I hope your daughter gets to the UK safely. Apologies if this isn’t correct but is this happening because Chinese people are being blamed for the second lockdown?

I honestly don't know. The first message on Twitter was specifically to kill Asians. I don't know if that was because of the attacks in Nice, or Covid. Then there were responses to that to go to 13th (Chinatown) and kill Chinese people.
DD messaged me this morning, she said her boss had told her not to come to work because they had closed the restaurant. She thinks that the people issuing the death threats just want to go out and attack anyone who looks "Asian".
She said they are taking the threats very seriously and people are hiding. I just hope she gets to the airport safely.

@ChineseMum

I’ve just seen some of the footage posted by people that have been attacked on Twitter - absolutely awful. I think it is the correct decision to stay inside as much as possible, can she drive herself to the airport? Or a friend?

Racism in France is seriously minimised, I’m so sorry

She is a sensible girl, I know she will make the best decision she can. She has to use public transport. So many people are trying to leave,I don't know if there will be any cabs. Many of the cab drivers are Asian/North African. I am sure they will be nervous too.
I am just watching the news about the anti French demonstrations in Pakistan. It is all just horrific. So much incitement to violence.
I just hope nothing happens in the airport.

@Trut

You must be one of these people: I refuse to acknowledge patterns because I am a good person".

Have the authorities taken any action yet? I think a cab would be the safest option, is Uber an option? She could pre-book and have the details of her driver.

Sorry that was to @ChineseMum