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Original poster

Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

973 replies

Icantthinkofabettername · 17/10/2020 08:57

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

OP posts:
GroundAlmonds · 17/10/2020 10:09

Not everyone has the freedom to speak though, do they?
The BLM protestor have been vilified by Trump and violent, armed White supremecists have been defended:

That is the most topsy turvy piece of whataboutery.

Doesn’t everyone disagreeing with you give you pause?

SaskiaRembrandt · 17/10/2020 10:09

@Icantthinkofabettername

I see similarities between 'freedom of speech' - as advocated by Trump and satire produced by the more priveledged section of society.
What Trump advocates isn't freedom of speech; it's the freedom to do and say whatever he wants knowing he is backed up by violent people who will attack anyone who disagrees with him. Trump is no different to the person who murdered this teacher, he just delegates the violence.
TheVanguardSix · 17/10/2020 10:13

This isn't going well, is it, OP?

Scoobidoo · 17/10/2020 10:13
Biscuit
ItsALovelyDayToday · 17/10/2020 10:13

Your opinion reminds me of those headlines that say “husband kills wife because his dinner was burnt”. And then someone suggesting cooking lessons for wives would eradicate DV.

raddledoldmisanthropist · 17/10/2020 10:14

@Icantthinkofabettername

You haven't made clear what your actual point is, let me see if I have figured it out:

  1. A French teacher has been murdered because he showed cartoons featuring Muhammad in a discussion about satire and free speech.
  1. He was doing so because journalists at the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo had been murdered for the same reason- a crucial event in Frances recent past which he couldn't teach the topic without engaging with.
  1. You 'don't believe in the death penalty' so don't believe all these people should have been murdered but you do think 'nothing like this should happen again' and Charlie Hebdo were indefensible.
  1. I infer that you want images and mockery of Muhammad banned? And that you feed the teacher and the magazine should face stiff legal sanctions to avoid the need to murder them?
  1. I have no clue how the murder of BLM activists relates to that.
user1471565182 · 17/10/2020 10:15

Are you talking specifically about the mocking of Islam? im not quite up to date with all this

cheesemongery · 17/10/2020 10:16

I cannot believe what I am reading OP. I am truly distressed this morning. The teacher had asked Muslims who would believe they were going to be offended to leave. It's not teaching purely satire, it is teaching religion and history too, a history that my children are having to grow up and live with. It should absolutely be known what happened at Charlie Hebdo HQ as it should be known why. We have lost all right to free speech now by discussing a historic act, bound by religion and have lost the opportunity to talk with both sides about feelings impacted. Disgusting behaviour from said Muslim. I hope he rots.

ResplendentAutumn · 17/10/2020 10:16

I'm so confused, who do you think is being oppressed?

The teacher who was oppressed by having his head removed in a violent insane murder, because he showed pupils a picture?.
Can you get more oppressed than that?
I would love every teacher in France to show their pupils the Charles hebdo pics in solidarity to their murdered colleague.

That is France.

Hoctober · 17/10/2020 10:17

She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire

And this is a bad thing?

Satsuma2 · 17/10/2020 10:17

Your post don't make sense. You don't give into terrorism in any way. Or censor free speech.

user1471565182 · 17/10/2020 10:20

whys everybody got such a stick up their arse? just let the OP explain what they mean before you go off on one

ResplendentAutumn · 17/10/2020 10:21

Sorry op, Reading back, I think what your trying to say in a clumsy way is that, some members of the Muslim community eg the outraged dp of the girl who shared their outrage on social media and the local mosque need, help and education to realise that satire is a part of western freedoms, it's vitally important in our society, and they shouldn't feel outraged and murderous over a photo? Or drawing? That we all have different beliefs and we should be tolerant and accepting to all, be they Muslim, Jewish, atheist etc?

RelaisBlu · 17/10/2020 10:23

You seem very confused OP

raddledoldmisanthropist · 17/10/2020 10:24

@user1471565182

whys everybody got such a stick up their arse? just let the OP explain what they mean before you go off on one
OP has had 5 goes at it. Were all fairly sure we understand what she means but it's so monstrous that there is some doubt.

The 'stick up their arse' post are those who think the OP has been clear and don't think getting murdered for political speech is a 'fault on both sides' situation.

Original poster
Icantthinkofabettername · 17/10/2020 10:25

I get that religious satire seeks to question and undermine the oppressive power of organised religion. What I think is missed in it, is that those subject to/following that religion often feel that the satire is mocking them. Being a Muslim in France is not a comfortable position to be in, the satire creates more discomfort and alienation.

I would like for terrorist incidents of this kind to never happen again, surely you need to consider why it happens?

OP posts:
raddledoldmisanthropist · 17/10/2020 10:26

I think what your trying to say in a clumsy way is that, some members of the Muslim community eg the outraged dp of the girl who shared their outrage on social media and the local mosque need, help and education to realise that satire is a part of western freedoms, it's vitally important in our society, and they shouldn't feel outraged and murderous over a photo? Or drawing? That we all have different beliefs and we should be tolerant and accepting to all, be they Muslim, Jewish, atheist etc?

Read OP's last post. Pretty sure she means the opposite.

user1471565182 · 17/10/2020 10:27

Its an internet forum, raddle, you dont earn points for how emotional and angry you can get about a subject.

MoonJelly · 17/10/2020 10:28

Not everyone has the freedom to speak though, do they?

No, that is why what the teacher was saying was valuable. Are you saying that because not everyone has freedom of speech no-one should promote the concept?

RHTawneyonabus · 17/10/2020 10:28

Are you saying we are not all equally free to exercise freedom of speech and that people who do should be mindful of that and not exercise freedom of speech?

Makes no sense.

raddledoldmisanthropist · 17/10/2020 10:29

What I think is missed in it, is that those subject to/following that religion often feel that the satire is mocking them.

I'm pretty sure rapists also feel sad that women won't sleep with them. Should we 'consider why this happens' as a way of stopping rape?

You are being very euphemistic, OP. You want to ban criticism of Islam because it hurts the terrorists feeling.

silentpool · 17/10/2020 10:29

I think Western countries have always made it clear that they value freedom of speech. Its no secret. If you cannot mount a sensible counter argument and need to resort to violence to make your point, you should maybe consider if Western countries are working for you? Lots of countries out there to choose from.

ScrapThatThen · 17/10/2020 10:30

So you're saying the poor terrorists couldn't help themselves because they were mocked?

SaskiaRembrandt · 17/10/2020 10:30

@Icantthinkofabettername

I get that religious satire seeks to question and undermine the oppressive power of organised religion. What I think is missed in it, is that those subject to/following that religion often feel that the satire is mocking them. Being a Muslim in France is not a comfortable position to be in, the satire creates more discomfort and alienation.

I would like for terrorist incidents of this kind to never happen again, surely you need to consider why it happens?

Maybe it would help if schools and college taught classes to help students understand the history of free speech and satire ... oh
RainingBatsAndFrogs · 17/10/2020 10:31

@user1471565182 the ‘add post’ button and a big clear white box is available for the OP to clarify, debate, challenge.

Clarity of expression is also quite important.

People are passionate about the principle of free speech, they do not have ‘sticks up their arses’ whatever that means.

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