Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

This thread opened as a debate on whether free speech should be encouraged at all costs but it’s been derailed.

But don't they to some extent, who are they accountable to?

Hate preachers can say exactly what they like because who is going to report them? In a religious building it's not like you can get your phone out and start filming them. It's very carefully done.

No I don’t. And rather than explain it you’re keen to say we’ve moved on.

And for all those here keen on free speech at all costs, do you mean that Islamic hate preachers should be free to say whatever they like too?

You think that non-Muslims should be bound, legally and/or socially, by the religious taboos of Muslims. Either to be polite, or out of fear, or through legal compulsion.

And while you don't condone the murder of the Charlie Hebdo staff, you think they contributed to their own deaths by offending religious sensibilities. Ignoring the fact that after slaughtering the staff of the French equivalent of Viz, the terrorists went to a kosher supermarket murdered a bunch of random Jews because their very existence was offensive to Islamists.

So you disallow cartoons of Mohammed, because Muslims find it offensive. What next? Islamists find an awful lot of stuff offensive, as do all religions. It's just in the West they are entitled to think that, and live as they wish, but not impose it on the rest of us. And we're allowed to think they're wrong, but leave them to it.

And FWIW I think people can say what they like as long as they don't directly threaten violence. The former Malaysian PM went on a twitter rant today about the French asking for Muslim terrorism (his characterisation of it, not mine) and western women not wearing enough clothes. More power to his elbow I say. Very informative. I think most Western women have heard the Islamist 'western women are like uncovered sweets blah blah blah' shite, without desiring to behead Mo who runs the local corner shop.

Um, most people don’t want to behead anyone. They just want to get on with their lives. Have enough money to feel secure. Feel respected in their environment and that they matter.

I would wager if you asked people what their dreams and aspirations are, most would say the above, whether they are Christian or Muslim or atheists.

Collective punishment will not lead to anything positive.

most people don't want to behead anyone
Thank god for that!! Although it does set the bar quite low.

No one is advocating collective punishment - apart from those trying to say that the teacher who got beheaded somehow deserved it for disrespecting Islam.

Because respect only goes one way here. Likewise free speech. And feeling offended.

😃 I was responding to this “I think most Western women have heard the Islamist 'western women are like uncovered sweets blah blah blah' shite, without desiring to behead Mo who runs the local corner shop.”

To be fair, at a personal level I’ve found most men to be respectful, irrespective of religion. And the ones who are arses. Well, it is again across religions and they would be that way no matter what.

@Trut

Pretty sure when your religion preaches segregation of women from men, encouraging women to stay at home as much as possible, to cover themselves up, to ask permission from their husbands....then the men in your community are far more likely to be arse holes.

[quote mangoesforever]@Trut

Pretty sure when your religion preaches segregation of women from men, encouraging women to stay at home as much as possible, to cover themselves up, to ask permission from their husbands....then the men in your community are far more likely to be arse holes. [/quote]
Yep. Can't say that this is wrong. I've certainly met a few.

I keep thinking about this. There is this notion of collective blame (victimhood) that keeps coming up. But what of collective responsibility? Religious teachings, connected to this religion are being used to encourage and celebrate this kind of violent behaviour. Surely if those leaders, religious or otherwise and the wider community completely shunned these people, they would not feel emboldened to act like this? These warped ideas are not coming out of nowhere and do not exist in isolation.

When you have the former PM of Malaysia, encouraging this anti-Western attitude, you do despair. If it is a religion of peace, then it collectively needs to demonstrate that - publicly and privately. If the religion cannot co-exist peacefully and cooperatively with Western ideals, then it needs to adjust, not the West.

@silentpool

Salafi teachings are extremist teachings, it is seen as complete madness and twisting truths to the extreme to justify evil as far as I’ve heard. As I’ve said in a previous post, here in the U.K. many, many more plans are foiled than carried out which suggests that there is active reporting within the community. To give perspective - Morocco is a Muslim country, they shut down schools promoting Salafi teachings and did not back down despite protests. That has happened here in the UK too, after reporting from within the community.

There are Extremists who come into Europe by tricking the refugees that they are travelling with (over a long period of time) - they shave off their beards, appear friendly and do not hint at any extremist views. These refugees only learn that their ‘friend’ is an extremist after an attack has been carried out - I can’t imagine how sickening it must feel to be tricked like that for so long, even potentially have your children/family around them; you would constantly wonder if there was something you had missed, something you could have reported so that this attack could have been stopped - but there wouldn’t be anything that you would have missed, they have been expertly trained to do this (there is a lot of funding from certain parts of the world for this) and they have a mission to carry out.

The attacker yesterday had been in France for 3 weeks prior, the attacker who killed the teacher had contact with Syria - the way that European Muslims are portrayed as being complicit in this is so incredibly wrong. What is going on in the world right now has a lot more to do with politics than religion.

No. It's religion. These are religiously motivated killings. The woman in the church in Nice was a Brazilian migrant, a mother of three. She was murdered because she was at prayer in a church.

Good points above.

On the young man man who went from Italy to France to murder innocent people in a church I cannot remember what EU law says about it - if you are safe in Italy can you then move to France? Or can you shop for asylum in any EU state to which you then move?

@Maireas of course there are religions involved, there always was in history, but politics is definitely the driving force behind radicalisation (even if the extremists don’t realise the extent). These people are being trained in the name of religion, which does not coincide with Islamic beliefs btw, due to world politics.

@Xenia

I’m guessing he smuggled himself to France - if you get ‘fingerprinted’ in Italy then no matter where you go in Europe, you cannot claim asylum. You will be returned back to Italy and they will process your claim.

I learnt this after reading about the poor family that had been forced in the boat without life jackets by a smuggler to cross the English Channel the other day and sadly drowned. The mother would never have been able to stay and claim asylum, but she had previously said that she wanted her children to have a chance at life and to prosper in the UK.

@silentpool

I keep thinking about this. There is this notion of collective blame (victimhood) that keeps coming up. But what of collective responsibility? Religious teachings, connected to this religion are being used to encourage and celebrate this kind of violent behaviour. Surely if those leaders, religious or otherwise and the wider community completely shunned these people, they would not feel emboldened to act like this? These warped ideas are not coming out of nowhere and do not exist in isolation.

When you have the former PM of Malaysia, encouraging this anti-Western attitude, you do despair. If it is a religion of peace, then it collectively needs to demonstrate that - publicly and privately. If the religion cannot co-exist peacefully and cooperatively with Western ideals, then it needs to adjust, not the West.

Absolutely.

There is no sense of this being a huge problem that needs tackling from within. It's everyone else's fault and don't criticise our religious teachings or we will cry 'phobia'

[quote WelcomeToManderley]@Maireas of course there are religions involved, there always was in history, but politics is definitely the driving force behind radicalisation (even if the extremists don’t realise the extent). These people are being trained in the name of religion, which does not coincide with Islamic beliefs btw, due to world politics.[/quote]
Who are you to say it does not tie in with Islamic beliefs? You do know that salafi and Deobandi (which account for the largest minority at 45% of mosques in this country) are the most literal interpretations of their holy book. They would argue and have a very good case that theirs is the true Islamic belief. Moderate Muslims take their holy book less literally.

@mangoesforever

You do know that salafi and Deobandi (which account for the largest minority at 45% of mosques in this country) are the most literal interpretations of their holy book.

I would disagree with this - particularly about Salafi and Deobandi being the most literal interpretations. It’s all a matter of perspective of course, but once again the beliefs within these sects are driven by politics in Islamic history.

And then, if your views are so at odds with the West, why seek to move here? These last 2 terrorists were recent arrivals. Surely it must be uncomfortable? This bit, I don't get. There are so many interesting and dynamic Muslim majority countries out there. Why be a bitter minority somewhere when you can live as you please elsewhere? And to come, ostensibly seeking refuge, when you only mean harm, surely that is the lowest of the low?

Also let's not forget this started because a teenage girl deliberately stayed to be 'offended' and ran straight home to daddy who then proceeded to make a huge fuss. None of this would have happened if those parents hadn't taught her to have such little tolerance and hadn't made the decision to create a pridd red m they then shared with people they probably knew would do something awful.

Do they even care that teacher was killed? I doubt it, it's just another way to teach westerners a lesson. This is what happens when you don't toe the line. Entitled bastards.

@silentpool

And then, if your views are so at odds with the West, why seek to move here? These last 2 terrorists were recent arrivals. Surely it must be uncomfortable? This bit, I don't get. There are so many interesting and dynamic Muslim majority countries out there. Why be a bitter minority somewhere when you can live as you please elsewhere? And to come, ostensibly seeking refuge, when you only mean harm, surely that is the lowest of the low?

These extremist Imams gloat quite a lot about how Muslims are 'taking over' Western Europe. Muslims are the fastest growing Demographic in UK, France, Germany, Sweden etc

@silentpool

And then, if your views are so at odds with the West, why seek to move here? These last 2 terrorists were recent arrivals. Surely it must be uncomfortable? This bit, I don't get. There are so many interesting and dynamic Muslim majority countries out there. Why be a bitter minority somewhere when you can live as you please elsewhere? And to come, ostensibly seeking refuge, when you only mean harm, surely that is the lowest of the low?

They have stated numerous times - recorded in videos - that 'biological Jihad' is a thing - take over the West.

@silentpool

Of course they are the lowest of the low, I would challenge anyone that thinks otherwise. The terrorists who come to the west never come here to live comfortably.

Someone once said to me “unless you’ve never had freedom and opportunity, you don’t truly know what it feels like and how far you would be willing to go to find it for the ones you love.”

A lot of Muslim countries are completely corrupt, not due to the majority religion (except where there’s genocide of certain sects happening) but due to its history, governments and political issues.

Do they even care that teacher was killed? I doubt it, it's just another way to teach westerners a lesson. This is what happens when you don't toe the line. Entitled bastards.

Who are ‘they’? The people that were directly involved?