Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

[quote silentpool]@WelcomeToManderley are you saying there should not be some work done within the Muslim community to address such attitudes? Yes, its not everyone but its clearly an issue in France, given incidents over the last few years. It does seem like a bit of a cop out, when there are clearly radical elements, who probably do need to be dealt with. If it is a peaceful religion and its adherents are committed to France and being French, surely there would be a natural will within the community to want to deal with people who are fomenting hatred and division? Perhaps the push needs to come from within?[/quote]
I would think structural inequalities have something to do with it. Providing freedom of opportunity to ethnic minorities, especially young people would probably do more to reduce the feeling of anger and helplessness than navel gazing within

Honestly this thread is depressing with the Muslim and Immigrant bashing. And it is more depressing that many dont even realise how bigoted their views are. Yeah, they are of course referring to some not all Muslims/immigrants as if that justifies the negative stereotyping. I used to wonder who the DM readers were and I would guess quite a few on this thread

Are you saying that it is the duty of the host country to engage and not for both sides to do so? I disagree. I think integration is a two way street.

What do you mean by ‘host’ country. It is their country. Period. Like any other citizen. Many of the Muslims are second, third and fourth generation. They are no more ‘hosted’ than any other citizen.

@silentpool I don’t think these incidents are happening due to lack of trying from within. I know of schools here and abroad that have been closed after other Muslims have raised concerns about potential Salafi teachings and I have overheard Muslims raising awareness about Prevent, etc. I can’t remember the statistic numbers but a lot more plans get foiled than carried out so there must be active reporting of suspicions. I cannot comprehend how France is going to restrict 6 million people due to the actions of a tiny minority which on the whole the community are condemning. Everyone is usually so hot on privacy laws and freedom.

@Trut

Honestly this thread is depressing with the Muslim and Immigrant bashing. And it is more depressing that many dont even realise how bigoted their views are. Yeah, they are of course referring to some not all Muslims/immigrants as if that justifies the negative stereotyping. I used to wonder who the DM readers were and I would guess quite a few on this thread

It's very subjective though.

@trut I’m hoping that opposing posts haven’t been automatically dismissed and have given some perspective and food for thought.

@WelcomeToManderley I think the issue is the lack of integration though, particularly in France. If communities choose to remain separate and not integrate, is that not always going to cause suspicion and negativity? I've lived in a lot of places (am foreign) and I've watched this stuff play out. All groups need to communicate and engage with the dominant culture to some degree. Its got to come from both sides.

I would think structural inequalities have something to do with it. Providing freedom of opportunity to ethnic minorities, especially young people would probably do more to reduce the feeling of anger and helplessness than navel gazing within

Completely disagree with this. Victim blaming and a cop out.

Islamist extremism is a problem because of hate preaching to young impressionable men online and in mosques.

@mangoesforever this is not a conversation you can have. It's just and endless round of gaslighting and censorship. This is a great example of why Brexit is happening and labour loses elections. Because you are not allowed to point out things that are happening or have happened. No one is allowed to feel anything other than 100% comfortable with the erosion of their freedoms and way of life.

The virtue signalling trumps concerns about women's rights, gay rights, yet more persecution and blame of Jews and any other seemingly obvious rights won over the last 50-100 years.

There is literally no point in pointing out any facts. It's a complete shut down of any right to express any opinion that doesn't directly tally with what some people have decided.

I live in a very cosmopolitan area and have a lot of contact with different groups and most of it is fine. But equally I see a lot of Muslim women and children who are separated from society and who are almost completely covered - even very young girls of 5 or so in the height of summer. People crossing the road to avoid my very small and cute dog. Neighbours 3 doors up who won't even look at me let alone speak. I'm not tucked in some village clutching my pearls at 'brown people'.

But no. I am a daily mail reader and bigot. News to the different nationalities I'm friends and neighbours with, and employ. In fact I'm about to hire a Muslim and she will be amazing.

At some point they will cross the wrong left wing group who will have superior virtue signalling powers (the trans lobby with a bit of luck) but for now women, Jews and gay people are easy targets as ever. Cest la vie. 🤷‍♀️

This is relevant:

On the evening of 17 October 1961, at the height of the Franco-Algerian war, tens of thousands of Algerian protesters, including women and children, from around Paris gathered at various landmarks to demonstrate against what they considered a "racist and discriminatory" curfew imposed against them.

The authorities stamped out the protestors. Hundreds drowned in the Thames. 11k protesters were arrested.

www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/17/france-remembers-algerian-massacre

France has form for persecution of religious minorities. Huguenots are one example. Macron is talking tough in order to win support in the polls. Gullible people fall for the divide and conquer bullshit. One minister has even started talking hateful crap about shops selling halal and kosher. Thinking what is going on in France started with the death of a teacher is highly naive and ignorant thinking.

*SEINE not Thames.

[quote MarriedtoDaveGrohl]@mangoesforever this is not a conversation you can have. It's just and endless round of gaslighting and censorship. This is a great example of why Brexit is happening and labour loses elections. Because you are not allowed to point out things that are happening or have happened. No one is allowed to feel anything other than 100% comfortable with the erosion of their freedoms and way of life.

The virtue signalling trumps concerns about women's rights, gay rights, yet more persecution and blame of Jews and any other seemingly obvious rights won over the last 50-100 years.

There is literally no point in pointing out any facts. It's a complete shut down of any right to express any opinion that doesn't directly tally with what some people have decided.

I live in a very cosmopolitan area and have a lot of contact with different groups and most of it is fine. But equally I see a lot of Muslim women and children who are separated from society and who are almost completely covered - even very young girls of 5 or so in the height of summer. People crossing the road to avoid my very small and cute dog. Neighbours 3 doors up who won't even look at me let alone speak. I'm not tucked in some village clutching my pearls at 'brown people'.

But no. I am a daily mail reader and bigot. News to the different nationalities I'm friends and neighbours with, and employ. In fact I'm about to hire a Muslim and she will be amazing.

At some point they will cross the wrong left wing group who will have superior virtue signalling powers (the trans lobby with a bit of luck) but for now women, Jews and gay people are easy targets as ever. Cest la vie. 🤷‍♀️[/quote]
Excellent post. Completely agree.

@MarriedtoDaveGrohl We might be neighbours .

Saying someone is ill because you don't agree with their views tends to prove who is in the right in my view.

I happy for any views to be expressed. It is very sad that the brand of Islam which is much worse which I think is from Saudi and is more extreme took more hold in the UK than the versions we used to have. You see women covering their heads when their mothers never did but were muslim and mothers not liking the new radicalism of their daughters.

However as long as people don't break the law they can bring up their families how they like as long as it does not stop someone in a min skirt walking down any muslim or hassidic jewish street in the UK.

part of the problem is numbers. We have 16 m more people in the UK than when I was born so we are quite crowded. Where I am from we are still 98% white and most of that is Christian and 0.3% muslim. Where I am in London is a borough which is now mostly not white Christian. That is a big change - in a sense without moving I have become a stranger in my own land, another, an outlier, a weird thing because I am white etc I can cope and unlike most white people here I have not engaged in white flight but it is certainly something that has an impact on you eg my son when the only white boy in his class I remember one day saying he was the only boy on the table who was in favour of equality for women and who was not anti gay.

One of the main problems is when people’s very real concerns are dismissed as stereotypes and racism.
Using the girls in Rotherham as an example, saying you see this happening in your area, and how concerning it is, and how negatively it is affecting the local community, only to be totally dismissed by someone who clearly doesn’t deal with this shit on a day to day basis is clearly infuriating.

How can you be basing what you see with your own eyes on stereotypes?
How can your reality be racist?

When people are dismissed when talking about real problems is when resentment simmers. This is what causes the tension.

Rather than saying yes it does happen, isn’t it terrible, those poor girls etc, it jumps straight to basically saying ‘stop talking about the negative things these particular Muslims have done, because it could reflect badly against all Muslims’. Bonus points for mentioning terms such as ‘knuckle dragging’ ‘daily mail’ ‘little englander’ etc.

People are allowed to criticise the behaviour of anyone, no one is above criticism ffs.

When you have people emboldened to behead a man in the streets, that’s a real fucking problem.

And one that absolutely needs to be addressed.

Following your argument through to its logical conclusion, it’s essentially saying the same thing as ‘we shouldn’t investigate the rise of knife crime in x area, because most people who live in this area are peaceful and just going about their business’

It’s a dishonest and non-sensical argument.

I’m not even going to add anything about how I know not all Muslims are like this, because you see people bending over backwards to put all these disclaimers in, but people will just dismiss them as bigots out of hand anyway.

It’s ridiculous

I wonder if France's brand of secularism is actually fuelling the separatism Macron has vowed to fight.

I can't see how the absence of RE lessons in the school syllabus, the banning of burkas in public and making girls remove hijabs as they arrive on school premises is going to foster tolerance and understanding (or fraternity).

Aren't these stances more likely to promote a false veneer of sameness underneath which Muslims feel marginalised and much more separate? I don't know, but I do wonder.

I think from my experience of living in a Borough in London, which is majority non-White English, there is no dominant English culture here. It is a mass of different cultures co-existing but largely living separate lives - Eastern European, Pakistani, various Arabic speaking groups, Afro-Caribbean, African and hipsters. There is a very strong sense of dislocation, as while it looks English architecturally, it couldn't be further from England in many ways. Everyone seems to come from somewhere else and it is rare to meet someone who has lived here for a long time. As such, there is less effort made to speak English or to do things differently than you would "at home". For example, there was a very strong push recently to have the call to prayer broadcast over the neighbourhood on a Friday. So the sense of "otherness" may be down to the fact that there are large numbers of each group, who keep to themselves and don't look outwards. Do they want or need to belong here, in this scenario or given their numbers can they comfortable co-exist instead?

@silentpool

I think from my experience of living in a Borough in London, which is majority non-White English, there is no dominant English culture here. It is a mass of different cultures co-existing but largely living separate lives - Eastern European, Pakistani, various Arabic speaking groups, Afro-Caribbean, African and hipsters. There is a very strong sense of dislocation, as while it looks English architecturally, it couldn't be further from England in many ways. Everyone seems to come from somewhere else and it is rare to meet someone who has lived here for a long time. As such, there is less effort made to speak English or to do things differently than you would "at home". For example, there was a very strong push recently to have the call to prayer broadcast over the neighbourhood on a Friday. So the sense of "otherness" may be down to the fact that there are large numbers of each group, who keep to themselves and don't look outwards. Do they want or need to belong here, in this scenario or given their numbers can they comfortable co-exist instead?

Yes, not much need to integrate to English culture when so many from the same origin culture/country move into their little communities and keep to themselves. Studies have shown that in more diverse areas, there is much less community cohesion and much more distrust.

@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars

One of the main problems is when people’s very real concerns are dismissed as stereotypes and racism. Using the girls in Rotherham as an example, saying you see this happening in your area, and how concerning it is, and how negatively it is affecting the local community, only to be totally dismissed by someone who clearly doesn’t deal with this shit on a day to day basis is clearly infuriating.

How can you be basing what you see with your own eyes on stereotypes?
How can your reality be racist?

When people are dismissed when talking about real problems is when resentment simmers. This is what causes the tension.

Rather than saying yes it does happen, isn’t it terrible, those poor girls etc, it jumps straight to basically saying ‘stop talking about the negative things these particular Muslims have done, because it could reflect badly against all Muslims’. Bonus points for mentioning terms such as ‘knuckle dragging’ ‘daily mail’ ‘little englander’ etc.

People are allowed to criticise the behaviour of anyone, no one is above criticism ffs.

When you have people emboldened to behead a man in the streets, that’s a real fucking problem.

And one that absolutely needs to be addressed.

Following your argument through to its logical conclusion, it’s essentially saying the same thing as ‘we shouldn’t investigate the rise of knife crime in x area, because most people who live in this area are peaceful and just going about their business’

It’s a dishonest and non-sensical argument.

I’m not even going to add anything about how I know not all Muslims are like this, because you see people bending over backwards to put all these disclaimers in, but people will just dismiss them as bigots out of hand anyway.

It’s ridiculous

Another excellent post.

There’s nothing wrong with free speech that criticises people’s behaviour.
Only if it criticises someone personally (you’re ugly and stupid) or denigrates an entire group based on the behaviour of a few (all Muslims should be thrown out) or disrespects someone’s entire past (needlessly showing mocking and offensive pictures of people or traditions important to them).
If you’re trying to teach your child you don’t say, “you careless, clumsy, filthy child, you’ve ruined my floor”, you say, “don’t shake your paint around like that again because it makes a mess.”
Do I think that saying something deliberately offensive merits being murdered? No. But it still doesn’t make it right or helpful.
Most of the above posts, especially the more recent ones, compared to earlier in the thread, are sticking to criticising behaviour which makes for good debate and therefore may lead to change.

That’s my two pence anyway!