Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

You know a lot of us have heard things, and seen things, and have read things that portray Islam awfully. Yes, there are some Muslims who are dickheads but you can apply that to any religion and any race. A lot of shit gets said behind closed doors but for some reason you’ve been blindsided by hatred towards Islam. Ex-Muslims are notorious for leaving Islam and then never talking about anything else but Islam, ever there’s a clear agenda and it’s very easy to fall down internet black holes.

I compare to the Jews because if I sent you back to 1941 you’d fit right in with how you speak about your “concerns” regarding people who follow a religion you don’t agree with or deem acceptable. Back then people thought they were perfectly justified to talk about Jews the way you talk about Muslims. It’s reads as if you deem yourself as more intelligent, more superior and more worthy.

I don't see that al all I think you are being unfair. Didn't she (assuming) say that she didn't like the way Islam treats Jews and gay people and women? Or am I thinking of another poster?

I don't think that the Jews ever beheaded anyone either. Well not for showing a cartoon!

Sorry I've just realised you are addressing me there! Absolutely not! I in fact also have a problem with homophobia and anti semitism and racism (not saying Muslims are racist before you make that up).

I think it's incredibly unfair to put those kinds of words into my mouth just to try and be clever. You can think that you know what I think but you don't. I've been clear that I don't like CERTAIN PARTS OF THAT RELIGION. Or ANY RELIGION that is very conservative and requires obedience ftom it's followers.

But the Jews aren’t the ones beheading people because they got upset over a cartoon or blowing themselves up to kill children coming out of a concert/shopping centre/plane etc
You really can’t compare the two.

@MarriedtoDaveGrohl

I’ve just looked over a couple of your previous posts and you’ve listed:

Trying to change the values of the country, producing dysfunctional children, shady businesses and corruption, crime and money laundering, wondering around in packs, wasting tax payers money, prison populations, Muslims hating everyone else but Muslims, poorly educated.

I’m not putting words into your mouth. Do you honestly think this is nothing like the shit that was said in the past? If so then nothing has been learned.

@Oliversmumsarmy the other poster isn’t talking about Islamic extremists, she’s talking about Muslim immigrants. I’m comparing the way she’s talking about Muslim immigrants to the way people used to talk about Jewish immigrants which ultimately lead to abhorrent events taking place.

[quote WelcomeToManderley]@MarriedtoDaveGrohl

I’ve just looked over a couple of your previous posts and you’ve listed:

Trying to change the values of the country, producing dysfunctional children, shady businesses and corruption, crime and money laundering, wondering around in packs, wasting tax payers money, prison populations, Muslims hating everyone else but Muslims, poorly educated.

I’m not putting words into your mouth. Do you honestly think this is nothing like the shit that was said in the past? If so then nothing has been learned.[/quote]
The poster was referring to the negative consequences of mass immigration, not specifically Muslim immigration. The poster also noted separately that she had issues with the religion and some of its teachings, which could be at odds with Western culture.

I think you are mischaracteristing what was said. Can you please rebut her arguments in a sensible fashion without no-platforming her?

WelcomeToManderley

I was trying to point out that on the whole there weren’t any Jewish extremists to warrant how they were treated.

It works when the incomers try to fit in with the values of their hosts. But if I lived in Rotherham I wouldn't be feeling warm and fuzzy about it. Because one side thought they had friends and boyfriends - the other saw it very fucking differently. And it's STILL happening in many many places.

I live in a multicultural area and it's not the utopia you want to paint it as. I see people refusing to engage and actively keeping themselves apart. Which would be fine if it didn't produce such dysfunctional children. All those boys brought up as little princes then not being able to fit in with a world that doesn't see them as kings. Their anger at not being important just for being alive plays out every day.

I see shady 'businesses' and corruption. Crime and money laundering disguised as takeaways etc. Men hanging around in packs in the day doing nothing. Women who are one of several wives with tons of children living in fsmily homes in very expensive areas being paid for entirely by the tax payer.

Check out the number of people in prison and their makeup. You'll find a lot of non UK born there. Muslims.

If you think that all Muslims in the UK are ok with us you are very wrong. I've read a number of books and articles by Muslims that have broken rank and been very clear about the overall views amongst immigrant Muslims towards UK citizens. We are kaffirs. There to use, and con, and fuck.

I really wish that it was just a different religion and we could all just be ok. But that's not the reality.

@silentpool this post contains nearly every negative stereotype in the book, it is very clearly written about Muslim immigrants.

@flashbac

Woodhull You talk as if it's only Muslims that are coming over. In recent times it's been other races and religions (assuming you're in UK)

No not necessarily. I mean in general

The Jewish people have always tried to fit in and keep their heads down

@Oliversmumsarmy actually Jews were blamed for the assassination of Czar Alexander II in 1881, which fuelled anti-semitism.

Jews were held accountable for the actions of evil people.

Muslims are being held accountable for the actions of evil people.

I wouldn’t be saying that it looks like history is repeating itself if it didn’t so bloody obviously look like history was repeating itself.

I wouldn’t be saying that it looks like history is repeating itself if it didn’t so bloody obviously look like history was repeating itself.

There is absolutely no comparison.

There isn’t a comparison at the moment but humans tend to make the same mistakes over again. Find a minority, other them dehumanise them. Lump them all together. France already has a rising national front.

I mean some of these responses are ridiculous, if I wanted to I could read some white supremacist shit and say look at what all the white people secretly think ( the ones that have broken rank)

@monstermancs

I’m going to post this and then I’ll bow out of this thread.

People used to state that Jews should have equal rights but only if they lost their religious customs, Jews were blamed for everything that was wrong in society due to their influence and people feared they were after dominance. Conspiracies spread like wildfire that Jews were aiming to manipulate and fool trusting non-believers.

Jews were used to justify wars. The presence of Jews culturally, economically, and politically made them convenient scapegoats. Prejudice against Jews within society allowed certain political views to infiltrate successfully.

People believed that the Jews were not, and could not ever be, “proper” citizens and blamed Judaism as the source of irrational religious faith. Jews were seen as the source of social injustice and cultural decline.

Jews were subject to public humiliation and mocking (free speech?)

If we follow the same pattern, the future could see Muslim businesses boycotted and seized, Muslims being defined and separated (suggested in America already) and Muslims being excluded from professions and schools.

There are estimated to be over one million Muslims currently in concentration camps, many are also believed to have been killed.

Legislation is about to be passed directly affecting Muslims in Europe, something which also affected many Jews in the past.

Can you really see no comparison? This is what children will be learning about in their history lessons 100 years from now.

Ex-Muslims are notorious for leaving Islam and then never talking about anything else but Islam, ever

That's usually because they've been traumatised by being disowned by all of their friends and family because of Islam. Quite a lot to work through.

@WelcomeToManderley you're barking up the wrong tree.

The legislation In France is tackling Islamic separatism/terrorism which is a HUGE problem in many western countries.

Mangoesforever like banning the teaching of Arabic and Turkish, what has that got to do with terrorism?

But did the Jewish people murder anyone in a country they were living in or join terrorist groups, they were terrified of drawing attention to themselves.

I think it is a very different scenario.

But did the Jewish people murder anyone in a country they were living in or join terrorist groups

At the time they were held accountable for murders, terrorism (probably much more than we know about) and were also accused of being communists.

Could you expand on that? You could be right or was there some framing done.

I genuinely don't remember reading about this but I know they were scapegoated.

@woodhill

Murders carried out by individual Jews had a huge impact on the Jewish community, an example being when a 17-year old Polish Jew killed a German diplomat because he was angry that his parents had been deported back to Poland. Approximately 100 Jews died, 7,500 Jewish businesses were damaged and hundreds of synagogues, homes, schools and graveyards vandalised.

A poster said earlier on in the thread that the ill-feeling towards Muslim immigrants was much more common than perceived as people didn’t often voice their opinions publicly. If Muslims are continually held accountable for the actions of individuals then I can see similar reactions not far off in the future, things will only escalate from here if we continue with this hate. People are rightly angry but they’re angry at the wrong people.

Thank you, yes I can see what you are saying

@WelcomeToManderley are you saying there should not be some work done within the Muslim community to address such attitudes? Yes, its not everyone but its clearly an issue in France, given incidents over the last few years. It does seem like a bit of a cop out, when there are clearly radical elements, who probably do need to be dealt with. If it is a peaceful religion and its adherents are committed to France and being French, surely there would be a natural will within the community to want to deal with people who are fomenting hatred and division? Perhaps the push needs to come from within?