Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

And yet people complain and two of mine that said nothing denigrating have been deleted. Unbelievable. It's just full on if you don't agree with me we will cancel you.

Do I think that saying something deliberately offensive merits being murdered? No. But it still doesn’t make it right or helpful.

People seem to forget that after killing the 'deliberately offensive' Charlie Hebdo staff, the attackers went to a kosher supermarket to murder a random bunch of Jews. Not sure how unhelpful they were being, shopping while provocatively Jewish.

Yes, that's a good point about the Jewish supermarket. I had forgotten about that.

I think you have to look at how other religions are treated in the Middle East, speaks volumes.

The Jewish Kosher supermarket incident was so awful, I can vividly remember watching it on the news.

IIRC there was Muslim shop assistant who worked there, he hid shoppers downstairs and then managed to escape aiming to raise the alarm but was captured immediately and held as he was suspected of being one of the terrorists (I’m guessing he must have been wearing Islamic clothing?)

@WelcomeToManderley

The Jewish Kosher supermarket incident was so awful, I can vividly remember watching it on the news.

IIRC there was Muslim shop assistant who worked there, he hid shoppers downstairs and then managed to escape aiming to raise the alarm but was captured immediately and held as he was suspected of being one of the terrorists (I’m guessing he must have been wearing Islamic clothing?)

This is complete bollocks! Lasagna Bathily met the police outside, gave them detailed information about the layout of the store and led them to where he had hidden customers in the basement. He was rewarded for his bravery by being given French citizenship a week later!

@vitaminC

I looked up what happened exactly after I posted, he was captured and held for an hour and a half. Once freed he was able to give them details about the layout of the store and he was hailed a hero.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/10/paris-supermarket-kosher-hero-attack

“I want to tell the Jews of France, you are not isolated. You are not abandoned. This is your country,” said Bathily, who himself became a French citizen by power of an executive decree weeks after the bloodbath at the HyperCacher store in recognition of his role in saving people from the perpetrator. “Do not leave France, stay here,” he added. “There are many like me who support you.”

www.timesofisrael.com/muslim-rescuer-of-jews-takes-seat-in-back-at-slain-holocaust-survivors-vigil/

@WildishBambino

Do I think that saying something deliberately offensive merits being murdered? No. But it still doesn’t make it right or helpful.

People seem to forget that after killing the 'deliberately offensive' Charlie Hebdo staff, the attackers went to a kosher supermarket to murder a random bunch of Jews. Not sure how unhelpful they were being, shopping while provocatively Jewish.

I don’t know what your point is. Is it that, just because a minority of people are violent murderers, the rest of us should be as offensive as we want?

How does that help anyone?

I don’t know what your point is.

I think you do actually.

Anyway, we've moved on. Right now two people have been killed in Nice for being offensively in church.

MarriedtoDaveGrohl

Excellent post! Huge amounts of Stockholm Syndrome in evidence here.

I wonder if France's brand of secularism is actually fuelling the separatism Macron has vowed to fight.

I imagine the beheading of teachers, the murder of hundreds of people at rock concerts and in restaurants, the killing of cartoonists, the murder of little Jewish girls and the general hostility towards the majority secular population is what is fuelling separatism.

What, my deleted one? This thread is a joke. The second you say anything about what you see every day without an opinion it gets deleted. There is only one opinion allowed here and it's not the one most people have.

Ironically none of the people who disagree would live under the regime though. Because the very freedom to do the things they do would be gone.

What, my deleted one?

No the one that hasn't been memory-holed (yet) .

The difficult issue for the law is what is "offensive " to one person - eg reading from the bible about gays, sodom and g etc or that massive my mother always baulked at in church every year from the bible about "Wives submit to your husbands"; might not be offensive to another.

The wages of sin is death. Gays will burn in hell. Abortion is murder. Suicide is a mortal sin. only those who are saved will get to heaven. We are the chosen people/race. You can probably say all those in the UK even if it makes people get upset/offended. You can say a fat woman is not as attractive as a thin one. You should generally avoid saying "you are fat and look ugly" because it is unkind rather that that it is illegal.

English breach of the peace law is weird too - that the offence occurs when people in England seeing the event will get annoyed and cause trouble. That means that if you do one act in one place you are fine (eg nudity on some beaches) but the same act elsewhere where people heave different values and you are not fine.

All religions get criticised. There was a whole thread about Jehovah's witnesses in herd not long ago. All agreed that being discouraged from socialising outside the church, cast out from that society if you leave the religion and being told what to do say by day makes it a cult. Along with the prescribing what women do (stay home and breed) and banning any autonomy for its members.

Lots of negative press on extreme Christians and Mormons. Masses on the Catholic Church. No one killed for doing it and it isn't Considered wrong because these religions do have a lot to answer for. It is wrong to force girls to marry young to a 45 year old man, it is wrong to control how they live their lives or dress. It IS wrong to proclaim 'homosexuals' as the work of the devil and cast them out.

And yet here we are.

@MarriedtoDaveGrohl

What, my deleted one? This thread is a joke. The second you say anything about what you see every day without an opinion it gets deleted. There is only one opinion allowed here and it's not the one most people have.

Ironically none of the people who disagree would live under the regime though. Because the very freedom to do the things they do would be gone.

I know, your posts make sense to me and why is your perspective deemed so outrageous .

Xenia you are right the only difference is that we are allowed to talk about the bible and Christianity. However because of a supposed minority and disadvantage we aren't allowed to talk about other religions. Because to do do us to personally attack the people that practice them apparently. Because those people find it highly offensive and distressing.

Religion is a business. All religions are set up to become the dominant one and the one with the best strategy wins. Some are more determined to win than others and some fall out of favour for attempting to be too restrictive without proving sufficient payback.

Lots of things to practice, very strict rules, Ceremony and icons, adding to the population by having the maximum number of children, telling your followers they are the only true believers and are superior. Making sure those that could cause dissent are cast out, making the price for leaving losing all of your family, extreme policing of every word and action, encouraging followers to report and police each other, keeping women in their place as providers on new followers. It's all so depressingly predictable.

It's not like it's a new thing but for whatever reason only one has become the cause celebre amongst the left. The only one that must never be held to account or questioned.

I hope we can discuss Islam as much as Catholicism on MN. I never felt I could now. I hope we can also point out things we disagree witth in Islam too just as much as with the FLDS under Warren Jeffs (just a fundamentalist Mormon group and Lev Tahor a fascinating extremist group which even hassid jews might dispute is jewish).

I hope I am allowed to say in my view the bits of the bible saying wives submit to your husbands and in Islam that women should cover up or their evidence in court is worth less than a man's are wrong and I want those to be changed. I want to be allowed to draw cartoons making fun of the the prophet and Jesus, want to live in a UK where you can sell Jesus and Mo T shirts and the like.

If one religion is more sensitive to criticism than others then that is probably because it is a worse and a weak religion that cannot stand up to scrutiny.

Most religions advocate doing good to others and putting others first.

Often religions get caught up in politics e.g. Ireland which is nothing to do with people's hearts and minds but Christianity gets blamed.

this is a similar scenario but it absolutely awful and hard to comprehend

There is also a thread going which is very critical of British culture but I haven't seen any violence erupting as a result. So it IS possible to take criticism on the chin....

@WildishBambino

I don’t know what your point is.

I think you do actually.

Anyway, we've moved on. Right now two people have been killed in Nice for being offensively in church.

No I don’t. And rather than explain it you’re keen to say we’ve moved on.

And for all those here keen on free speech at all costs, do you mean that Islamic hate preachers should be free to say whatever they like too?