To not feed DC the Father Christmas lie

[PeterRabitting]

Not looking for the MN angry responses of "let children be children for gods sake" etc etc but interested in hearing the intellectual views of any parents who've handled "Father Christmas" differently from the 'norm'. The reason is, I have a friend who has raised all her DC telling them there is no such thing as Santa from the outset. It has intrigued me a bit, as a mum of a baby. On the one hand part of me thinks that it's terribly sad and my friend's DC are missing out on the magic etc. But in the other hand her reasons do make some sense to me. She and her DH are atheists and so she argues that in the same way she tells her kids the science of life (eg she doesn't tell them there is such a thing as heaven) why would she fool them into thinking Father Christmas is real. She talks to her DC about FC as a belief / story that some people believe, in the same way that some people believe in different religions etc. She leaves it open for her DC to believe if they choose to, so she doesn't say it's "nonsense" but she just says some people believe it. She said her DC are critical thinkers and would question things like the scientific possibility of flying round the earth etc etc anyway.

She also says that her way encourages gratitude, mindfulness and an appreciation of the value of money because her DC know that their gifts come from mummy and daddy through love and hard work and do not magically appear / are not made by elves. My friend says that she installs a sense of magic into her DC through all the lovely family things they do and spending time together.

I'm uncertain but it intrigued me as I too am an atheist and if I'm not trying to persuade my child that heaven exists then why would I persuade them that Santa does? On the other hand... "let children be children"!

Does anyone on here "do Father Christmas" differently / not feed their DC this story?

Actually our dc went to a very multicultural primary school so probably lots didn’t do Christmas at home at all . We also didn’t take the route we did because of any moral attitude of not wanting to lie to our children .

@Floralnomad

Actually our dc went to a very multicultural primary school so probably lots didn’t do Christmas at home at all . We also didn’t take the route we did because of any moral attitude of not wanting to lie to our children .

Yes, sorry, didn't mean you @Floralnomad, I meant the people getting rather shrill about non-believer children apparently having to be actively kept in check from 'bullying' or 'belittling' those who do. I reckon between one third and half of DS's class were either from European backgrounds with different Christmas traditions or from non-Christian backgrounds who didn't celebrate Christmas at all. The children appeared to negotiate all of this perfectly competently.

It's a spectrum of how far you choose to take it I think. I have never gone on about father Christmas as such. They always knew that presents were off the people on the tags. I have never done the mince pie thing.

Also never done the Easter bunny thing either. They can eat eggs whenever they get given them and I buy them regularly from when they appear in the shops for £1.

My mum and dad told us that Santa brought the presents but mummy and daddy paid for them - so he was really just a glamorous delivery service!
I did do the Santa stuff but while they were small, they never had Advent calendars and we didn't do any big countdown to Christmas day (so we could sleep in till a reasonable time and not have early morning hysteria);)

I think your friend lacks an understanding of child psychology and development - they’re really not mini adults.

I would argue, intellectually, that Father Christmas represents the finest impulses of humanity - compassion, generosity, selflessness, giving with no expectation of reciprocity, society conspiring to protect innocence, and the oldest impulse of all - story telling.

On a practical level I have some mixed feelings. My NT child has transitioned beautifully from a believer and receiver to a magic maker. She was really moved to realise that dh and I were behind it all, and she helps pick out gifts for poorer children now and bring gifts to the hospital for those stuck there over Christmas.

My asd son found it harder despite being quite logical in his dismantling of the myth. He wants it to be true and finds the mixed messages very confusing. He was always unnerved by the idea of a stranger in the house. It has never quite been right for him.

If I could do it over now, for him, I might not have perpetuated the myth. But I’m not sure how we would have managed the mixed messages he would inevitably have received.
But if I could do it over with dd, I wouldn’t change a thing.

Got it all sounds a bit like my best friend whoses parents were very earnest. Her childhood was fine but lacked much joy or excitement. Every moment of celebration or or excitement was always dampened down a little by talks and considerations.

Now she has children of her own she has gone full on the other way and did everything she could to add sparkle. Life is pretty short and childhood even shorter.

I don’t do santa, the toothfairy etc with my son. We aren’t christians so don’t celebrate christmas anyway.

Its fairly common for adoptive families to dodge santa etc as not only is it another ‘transition’, it also puts pressure on behaviour, being good enough for presents etc.

I'm always surprised when people view things so literally, and refer to them as "lies".
For us, incorporating imagination, and imaginary characters was something I did all the time when the children were small. Not just Father Christmas. I'm sure they believed me totally when I pointed out Rapunzel's tower, or suggested I had caught a glimpse of the Gruffalo, just as they believed me when I told them to hang their stockings up on Christmas Eve. But those weren't "lies"

Did my 3 year old believe her newborn sibling had been to the toy shop to buy her a doll shortly after being born? Not sure. But that wasn't a lie either.

I'm sure my 12 year old didn't believe me when I told her the cat had ordered her a birthday present from a catalogue; I bet she doesn't really believe her grandparents dog can write and send her postcards either. She acts as though it's true though, and it's not due to lack of critical thinking skills.

It's fun to pretend, and lose yourself in the make-believe.

But that's not really factual. Father Christmas isn't something some people believe in. It's not like religion where no one actually knows.

Children aren't people? Of course some people believe in Father Christmas. They're just (usually) young.

I didn't tell my kids that there was a Father Christmas but played along with the game till they worked it out for themselves. The eldest was recruited into keeping the game going for the younger ones when she worked it out - we treated it almost as a right of passage into a more adult world.

Having seen through the fiction none of them has expressed any interest / belief in anything supernatural - other than enjoying the odd scary movie.

it also puts pressure on behaviour, being good enough for presents etc

That doesn't have to be the case. And if it were, surely it would make sense to apply it to birthday presents or any treat? Using the 'You'd better be good or Santa won't come' line is weak parenting. Birthday or Christmas presents should not be dependent on behaviour imo.

I think your friend sounds pretty rigid in her thinking TBH. There are millions of atheists in this country and we have no problem with sharing a magical fantasy with kids. As they develop they come to see it for what is is - a metaphor, a concept but not really a 'lie' (which usually has some malicious or at least lazy intent). My son stopped believing very young (About 4 or 5) but had no issues with, at that stage, understanding that it's a concept and therefore can be conceptualised as 'true' if you look at it that way. I can see why some people don't want to tell their kids santa is real and each to their own, but looking down at others or assuming we've just not thought about it as much (which can sometimes be how it comes across) is patronising. Plus allowing your kid to spoil the illusion for others is not nice and nothing to be proud of (yes I've seen that too).

@LustigLustig

I'm always surprised when people view things so literally, and refer to them as "lies". For us, incorporating imagination, and imaginary characters was something I did all the time when the children were small. Not just Father Christmas. I'm sure they believed me totally when I pointed out Rapunzel's tower, or suggested I had caught a glimpse of the Gruffalo, just as they believed me when I told them to hang their stockings up on Christmas Eve. But those weren't "lies"

Did my 3 year old believe her newborn sibling had been to the toy shop to buy her a doll shortly after being born? Not sure. But that wasn't a lie either.

I'm sure my 12 year old didn't believe me when I told her the cat had ordered her a birthday present from a catalogue; I bet she doesn't really believe her grandparents dog can write and send her postcards either. She acts as though it's true though, and it's not due to lack of critical thinking skills.

It's fun to pretend, and lose yourself in the make-believe.

All so true!!! Adults need to play too!! And this kind of humour can help us through really difficult times too so there is other value in such games. My kids are 11 and 13 and we still hear the clip clop of the reindeer on the roof and see the tooth fairy disappearing around the corner. My newborn son, at 3 hours old, managed to make a chocolate cake for his sister. Clever lad.

Has anyone’s child ever asked why Father Christmas doesn’t bring things to people who don’t have any money? I asked my mum that when I was about 5 or 6, but I don’t remember her response so I don’t know how she wriggled out of that one.

It’s the only thing that would put me off telling my future children that FC is real, but maybe it didn’t bother me that much if I don’t remember the response. I just don’t want to encourage a narrative where FC brings toys to the ‘good’ children in the world, who are incidentally also the wealthy children in the world.

Maybe that sounds really pretentious though

We're atheists too, but why deprive children of wonder, mystery, fables and folk lore ? Our kids sang Rudolph the rednosed reindeer and Away in a manger, played with a Noahs Ark, wore teatowels and dressing gowns in nativity plays, made yule logs, decorated the house and a christmas tree, put stockings at the end of their bed as they heard distant bells jingling , left out a carrot for the reindeer and a mincepie for santa, found crumbs and a snowy footprint next day..They believed in the tooth fairy, and hunted for easter eggs hidden by a rabbit. They also looked for the ends of rainbows, made wishes on a shooting star, and avoided stepping on cracks and walking under ladders.

I don’t think there is an issue lying to children about things like babies buying presents and dogs writing cards ( our dog talks as well as sending cards ).It does become an issue though when you’ve pushed something so hard that when your child discovers the truth they are reduced to tears and / or saying that Christmas has been spoiled / the magic has gone which apparently happens regularly if you read the threads on here .

Part of me still believes. I heard the bells I swear I did. I lay in bed stock still not daring to look out of the window. We were staying at grandparents by the sea very remote. No explanation!

But perhaps having an everyday (un)reality peopled with talking dogs and superhuman babies just feeds naturally into a less black and white view of Father Christmas.
If Father Christmas is the only thing you are asked to believe in, turning it upside down might be a shock.
If you make a point of believing 3 unbelievable things before breakfast, as it were, you're more used to enjoying suspending disbelief, and you're less likely to suddenly demand the truth, or be devastated by it, because that's never been how it works.

My asd son found it harder despite being quite logical in his dismantling of the myth. He wants it to be true and finds the mixed messages very confusing. He was always unnerved by the idea of a stranger in the house. It has never quite been right for him.

Yes, my godson is autistic and was totally unnerved by the idea of Santa creeping into the house by night. His parents had a different story, about a kind ice dragon who brought gifts (and left them outside). I think he and his brother just concluded other people were wrong.

I do also know adoptive parents who don't do Santa for the reasons @SimonJT gives.

We're atheists too, but why deprive children of wonder, mystery, fables and folk lore ? Our kids sang Rudolph the rednosed reindeer and Away in a manger, played with a Noahs Ark, wore teatowels and dressing gowns in nativity plays, made yule logs, decorated the house and a christmas tree, put stockings at the end of their bed as they heard distant bells jingling , left out a carrot for the reindeer and a mincepie for santa, found crumbs and a snowy footprint next day..They believed in the tooth fairy, and hunted for easter eggs hidden by a rabbit. They also looked for the ends of rainbows, made wishes on a shooting star, and avoided stepping on cracks and walking under ladders.

Well, absolutely, us too, @2bazookas, but my point is that you can do all this (the fun and tradition and ritual and music) without literally believing in the divinity of Jesus. Our approach to Santa is similar.

Has anyone’s child ever asked why Father Christmas doesn’t bring things to people who don’t have any money?

My dc were confident that there was no such thing as child poverty when they were small. Santa would bring presents to everyone. Part of my job as an adult is to shield them from the harsher realities of life.

Now that they’re a bit older, they are aware of child poverty and donate towards homeless children and other charities. They are still young enough to think that this takes care of most of the world’s problems and that level of innocence is also fine for now.

I think if you’re going to do the Santa myth it’s important not to over egg the pudding, and let dc see through the illusion when they’re ready. @MsQueenInTheNorth I think when you asked that question you deserved a better answer than you got, though I can u see stand why your dm panicked! It shouldn’t be about preserving the magic against all odds. I think you need to work out the exit strategy because transitioning children to the next level is just as important as the magical childhood piece imo.

My dc were confident that there was no such thing as child poverty when they were small. Santa would bring presents to everyone. Part of my job as an adult is to shield them from the harsher realities of life
Did they not come into contact with children living in poverty at school?

My favourite memories of my whole childhood are believing truly in the magic of Christmas and Father Christmas. To think of children not sharing that joy is quite depressing.

We do similar to @DoYouRememberTheInnMiranda

We say Santa is real in the world of magic for the little ones.

The first Santa was St Nicholas, we have a story book about him that we read at Christmas. He really did exist, although his story has been embellished through the years. For the older kids we say that we do secret Santa presents (stockings only) in honour of him, and they have to be secret so no-one can know who “Santa“ is. This helps keep it from their friends.

The only issue I’ve had is with people telling my kids that Santa only brings gifts to good children! That goes absolutely against what we believe as Christians about unconditional love, which is the whole point of Christmas to us. My kids wanted to know- if the kids who got lots of presents were good, then surely Jonny who only got one gift must be bad!

My grandparents took this approach with my mother and aunts. They all as adults criticised their parents for being miserable bastards who put their own need to be “analytical” and tell people that their kids were “critical thinkers who were so much smarter than everyone else’s kids” above their childrens happiness.

I believed in Father Christmas and it was lovely. My kids do too and it’s equally lovely. I don’t care if it doesn’t teach them the value of money, they’ve got their whole lives to understand the value of money. Seeing my four year olds eyes light up talking about putting a carrot out for the reindeer trumps any nonsense about her needing to be a “critical thinker”.

They aren’t little for long. Let them have a sense of wonder over Christmas. God knows it’s all downhill after that.

@InFiveMins

My favourite memories of my whole childhood are believing truly in the magic of Christmas and Father Christmas. To think of children not sharing that joy is quite depressing.

Lots of people aren’t christians and aren’t brought up in christian homes. That doesn’t mean they have a depressing childhood. Just like not celebrating eid doesn’t mean someone has a depressing childhood.

@Completelyfrozen

When I look back now, the most magical part of Christmas was the belief that Father Christmas was bringing me gifts. I dont remember many of those gifts but I do remember how magical and special the whole world was that night. When I inevitably discovered that Father Christmas didnt really exist and it was all down to my parents, that there was no magic, Christmas was no longer magical. It was special, and has been every year since, but it has never been magical since. My favourite christmases were when we were dirt poor but we had the magic of christmas. Some children who begin having doubts as to whether Santa exists deliberately choose not to question, because even they see how amazing Christmas is when it feels magical. I cant think of one good reason to deprive a child of such moments to look back upon.

I agree. Although I still think Christmas is magical 🙂🙂