Page 4 | To not feed DC the Father Christmas lie

oatmilk4breakfast · 02/10/2020 12:21

I have gone down the 'story' route. Didn't introduce son to the idea, but his childminder (and ALL the other children did) so didn't hide away from it (how can you?) So we watched Arthur Christmas together etc but never pushed it in excited way like some do (ooh, are you excited for what Santa's bringing?! etc)

So when son asked me questions about Santa (how does he get down the chimney? what about us, we don't have a chimney?) I would just say 'what does it say in the stories? And I made sure I was reading all kinds of different stories to him, about the nativity (which is important to me as the basis of the Christmas story) but also the Russian Babushka story and the stories about St Nicholas. And of course things like the night before Christmas and Stick Man!

So for example I'd never 'feed' the excitement if you see what I mean, only respond to it but never negate it. I've been a bit unsure, but like you, didn't want to lie to my child nor take away 'magic'. He's a very logical child.

I actually feel the story approach has worked ok. We went camping recently and an older child told him that 'Santa' doesn't exist it's your parents and he wasn't devastated, just came to us for confirmation, and because we hadn't lied to him it wasn't a betrayal if you see what I mean? We could just talk about all the stories and why we love them, tell him yes your main present comes from us because we love you and we want to give you a present, and how everyone can 'be a Santa' - an idea I'd picked up from another parent on the internet and introduced when he was about 4 and a half.

Really, though, I think it's got to be different for every child, right? Because it's about the relationship.

Good luck with it!

Baaaahhhhh · 02/10/2020 12:21

I am not religious, don't believe in religion etc etc. and have always led discussion on belief as a personal thing. But I have always "gone along" with FC, and the nativity, as a fun festive thing to do. I think it must be exhausting to exclude anything that has no proof, particularly with little ones. Just go with the flow, and let children naturally come to their own conclusions.

TheLovleyChebbyMcGee · 02/10/2020 12:22

I do think Christmas loses a bit of magic without Santa so we'll be doing Santa with my DS age 2. However, we are going down the root of Santa bringing smaller gifts while mummy and daddy do the larger gifts. Its just easier to explain that not everyone can afford to buy big presents, rather than let a small child think that Santa hasn't brought them as much someone else in their class has been brought.

Also, we use the portable north pole message service that has been really lovley the last few years for our Dnieces and Dnephews. Its not for everyone, but its helped reassure a non-believing child in the past!! I don't work for them btw!

www.portablenorthpole.com/

Notfeelinggreattoday · 02/10/2020 12:22

@Slightlybrwnbanana thats a good point as xmas is a religious festival surely you wouldn't acknowledge it as an atheist just like johavah witness's don't celebrate xmas day etc

Bouledeneige · 02/10/2020 12:22

In the end I don't believe it will make the slightest bit of difference to the intellectual development of the children - except it might impact on their imagination, creativity and wonder which are exceptionally valuable stages of development and life skills. If all the lovely crazy imaginative notions of childhood like imaginary friends and stories were all factually dispelled we would be depriving children of a creative imagination that goes beyond rational skills and science.

As a parent I enjoyed spinning the magic of Father Christmas, and the excitement of the whole of Christmas Day as well as indulging in Easter, the tooth fairy, halloween and bonfire night. Apart from Guy Fawkes I don't personally believe in Santa, God, the Holy Spirit, Easter Bunny, Witches or Ghosts - and I've managed to arrive at this rational conclusion as an adult whilst still having been entertained by these 'lies' in childhood. I also enjoyed reading fairy stories and myths and legends to my kids which they really enjoyed - I loved them too as a child but no longer enjoy or would bother reading them except for nostalgia's sake now.

As an atheist however I have been careful to deploy the 'some people believe this' and 'some people believe that' approach. Because despite having no religious belief of my own I am respectful of others views and the comfort that their beliefs give to them. I was brought up in a very religious household - I respect my parents' beliefs but made my own mind up on that one. So I think you can arrive at intelligent critical thought without having it shoved down your throat by your parents. In fact given that I was a rebellious and independent minded teenager if my parents were atheist I might have had different views simply because it was a stage of my development to question their views and beliefs.

When my DC were little I had to tread carefully as their closest friend's Dad died when the children were 6 and 4. The other children had been told that their Daddy had gone to heaven and I was very sensitive to the fact that I didn't want my DC to challenge that comforting notion. So instead I deployed a sensitive notion that the people we love and loved who have died are always with us and looking out for us - a non religious form of spiritual comfort.

In the end myths, legends and fairy tales are an age old part of popular imagination and childhood, they feed the creative mind and sense of wonder and are not an alternative to intelligent critical thought.

August20 · 02/10/2020 12:23

Also I am interested on this thread that a lot of people are saying they don't do Santa because they are staunch atheists... this is interesting to me as mostly the people I know who don't do Santa are religious are think it takes the focus away from Jesus at Christmas!

Windywendys · 02/10/2020 12:27

@Bouledeneige

In the end I don't believe it will make the slightest bit of difference to the intellectual development of the children - except it might impact on their imagination, creativity and wonder which are exceptionally valuable stages of development and life skills. If all the lovely crazy imaginative notions of childhood like imaginary friends and stories were all factually dispelled we would be depriving children of a creative imagination that goes beyond rational skills and science.

As a parent I enjoyed spinning the magic of Father Christmas, and the excitement of the whole of Christmas Day as well as indulging in Easter, the tooth fairy, halloween and bonfire night. Apart from Guy Fawkes I don't personally believe in Santa, God, the Holy Spirit, Easter Bunny, Witches or Ghosts - and I've managed to arrive at this rational conclusion as an adult whilst still having been entertained by these 'lies' in childhood. I also enjoyed reading fairy stories and myths and legends to my kids which they really enjoyed - I loved them too as a child but no longer enjoy or would bother reading them except for nostalgia's sake now.

As an atheist however I have been careful to deploy the 'some people believe this' and 'some people believe that' approach. Because despite having no religious belief of my own I am respectful of others views and the comfort that their beliefs give to them. I was brought up in a very religious household - I respect my parents' beliefs but made my own mind up on that one. So I think you can arrive at intelligent critical thought without having it shoved down your throat by your parents. In fact given that I was a rebellious and independent minded teenager if my parents were atheist I might have had different views simply because it was a stage of my development to question their views and beliefs.

When my DC were little I had to tread carefully as their closest friend's Dad died when the children were 6 and 4. The other children had been told that their Daddy had gone to heaven and I was very sensitive to the fact that I didn't want my DC to challenge that comforting notion. So instead I deployed a sensitive notion that the people we love and loved who have died are always with us and looking out for us - a non religious form of spiritual comfort.

In the end myths, legends and fairy tales are an age old part of popular imagination and childhood, they feed the creative mind and sense of wonder and are not an alternative to intelligent critical thought.

Same here

Notfeelinggreattoday · 02/10/2020 12:27

@August20 yes its funny isn't is as it is actually a religious festival surely you just let it go by if an atheist or go down the father xmas route as it is actually frowned in by some religious groups

OutComeTheWolves · 02/10/2020 12:27

Personally I think it's fine to do Christmas however you want and that includes not doing santa if that's what you choose.

However I think you're friend is kidding herself with the justification behind it. Kids like getting cool presents I very much doubt it'll encourage mindfulness and appreciation.

Sewrainbow · 02/10/2020 12:27

I thought I'd do similar to your friend op. It was sort of taken out of my hands by nursery who perpetuated the whole he is real thing. I dont say he is but I don't come all out to say he isn't.

My ds 11 said "I dont think he is real" when he was younger so I just said it's something you can make up your own mind about but remember that other children may believe and you should respect that belief and not say anything that might spoil it. My youngest talks still as though FC is real he is 9, dont know what his thoughts are on it.

choli · 02/10/2020 12:28

It seems that most MN posters are incapable of writing a post about Christmas that doesn't include the word magical or magic. Its a day for buying tat and pretending it was delivered by an imaginary house intruder.

aSofaNearYou · 02/10/2020 12:30

She talks to her DC about FC as a belief / story that some people believe, in the same way that some people believe in different religions etc. She leaves it open for her DC to believe if they choose to, so she doesn't say it's "nonsense" but she just says some people believe it.

I don't know if it's just me, but this sounds rather like they will quite likely to grow up viewing FC as an actual religion, that adults subscribe to. If they are implying that any adults believe in FC, they are still lying to them. Not to mention it doesn't make sense to do a half arsed "some adults believe, some don't", because where would you be implying the adults think the presents have come from? They either know they bought them, or they know they didn't and there is magic afoot.

I actually agree with her argument about FC encouraging ungratefulness, but personally I think that can be got around by only having one, or a small amount come from him.

One of the other reasons I'd be a bit reluctant to tell them he doesn't exist from a young age is the worry they would tell their peers and cause issues with other parents being upset they've "ruined christmas".

I'm an atheist too and I do get that it feels odd and unnecessary deliberately telling them something is true that isn't, but all in all I don't think it really harms anything so they might as well have that bit of excitement. I had a very vivid imagination as a child and in a way really miss the time in my life when I believed magic was real, as I don't as an adult. It was a nice time in my life.

What I do think is really questionable is that we teach kids about ghosts and monsters etc, only for them to then be scared of them.

DishRanAwayWithTheSpoon · 02/10/2020 12:33

My parents would do some presents from them as a child, books and things were alqays from them. Santa bought toys and stockings

I knew really mum bought the toys because the label was in her writing, Id show her a toy and shed tell me to sit in the car and come back carrying a suspicious bag. We'd leave him a glass of my dads favourite wisky, my mum would put my stocking on my bed and come and kisd me goodnight, they were her footsteps and her smell but it didnt stop me believing in father christmas. It didnt stop me imagining how hed come down our non existent chimney, or imagining Id heard him come put the presents under the tree. Childrens imaginations are wonderful, and Im not sure why you would want to curtail that

b0redb0redb0red · 02/10/2020 12:36

DD (aged 4) doesn’t believe in Father Christmas/ Santa. No idea why! But apparently I spontaneously stopped believing in Father Christmas around the same time. DD is - and I was - a very imaginative, naive child, not some super-rational little sceptic. She’s possibly even a bit “younger” than her peers at school when it comes to believing in unicorns, fairies, wishes and all the rest. She just doesn’t really buy into the guy with the beard, and nor did I as a kid, even though my parents pushed it. So I don’t really think it matters much either way - Father Christmas isn’t the be-all and end-all of childhood wonder and innocence. And DD has still been getting excited about Christmas since August.

ImSleepingBeauty · 02/10/2020 12:36

@missyB1

Yawn.... bet it’s laugh a minute in their house.

My DD is already starting to work out it isn’t real and she’s year 1. I won’t confirm that though for the same reasons as @minipie.

And then my child goes and tells all the other children that their mummy says Santa is just something some people believe in? I’d have parents with pitchforks ready for bursting their DC’s magical belief

My DD would absolutely let the cat out of the bag. That’s why I won’t tell her until she’s older.

ramamamadingdong · 02/10/2020 12:37

My DH and I both grew up thinking FC was wonderful and we did go along with FC for our eldest two and watched them love the 'magic' we created for them. We are atheist, if that's relevant.

When our eldest was still believing at an age we thought might embarrass him at school, we told him, gently that it was really mum and dad and that FC was a nice story. Well, he was absolutely devastated, not about the presents, which we assured him would still be coming, but because the magic wasn't real. We decided then we had been wrong in creating the belief in the first place.

Fast-forward several years and there is a much younger sibling. When we told the older kids we thought we'd make very light of FC and not really pretend it was real, the one who'd been so upset said it would be such a shame for the little one to miss out. Although he'd been so upset, he thought those years of magic had been worth it.

I've since read somewhere about a really nice way of breaking it to them when they're the right age - it was something about letting them in on a secret that means they can be part of the giving and making other people's lives special with carefully chosen surprises, eg a gift for a neighbour, which I thought sounded appealing.

Botherfreedays · 02/10/2020 12:41

This is unbelievable. It's just supposed to be a bit of fun. I was a teacher for 20 years and met all sorts of students brought up in many different ways. Can't say any of them were suffering because of the lie they were told about Father Christmas. Many of them were embarrassed by their parents though

Bouledeneige · 02/10/2020 12:41

choli I don't agree Christmas is all about tat and house intruders. Of course lots of people go to extreme lengths to spend huge amounts of money on tat but that's not essentially what its all about for me or my DC or wider family. Father Christmas is not the essence of Christmas to us. For us its about getting together with family, eating and drinking and playing games and having a laugh. We still have loads of fun even if all the DC are now grown up and no one believes any of the myths about Santa or Baby Jesus.

I know this is the case since I've been discussing a scaled back version of Covid Christmas this year and my DC now 20 and 18 were more concerned about not seeing all their relations and cousins than stockings or presents. But that doesn't mean they didn't enjoy all the build up at school, carol services and the like when they were young.

OhToBeASeahorse · 02/10/2020 12:46

Equating FC and religion is too stupid for words.

boriselbow · 02/10/2020 12:47

I've never felt entirely comfortable with all the FC stuff, but lots of parents seem to take it very seriously. Some of the mums even had a 'wrapping paper group' where they could swap parts of rolls of paper used to wrap their 'Santa presents' to make sure that they didn't inadvertently use the same paper for presents that were from themselves and write tags for each other's santa presents so that their DC (who we all know carefully examine the handwriting on all tags!) would not recognise their writing. When I said I didn't want to join there was a moment of silence.

When my DC were small there seemed to be some sort of crisis at the school gates over someone (usually an older sibling, or a child with older siblings) suggesting that FC may not be real. There were often complaints to the school. The most extreme was when a visiting priest (Catholic School) made some comment to the children to the effect that there's more to Xmas than santa and not all good boys and girls get presents- in the context of discussion about caring for the less fortunate/helping the poor etc. A group of parents heard about it and complained to the school that this was inappropriate and had ruined their DC's childhood- there was even an article in the local press. The school eventually held an assembly to tell all the DC that FC is real and issued a letter to each child from FC himself.

AutumnleavesturntoGold · 02/10/2020 12:48

A belief like religion 😂😂🤣🤣 the cult of dc followed by fervent five year olds.

I'm another in the joyless pretentious rubbish camp.
Why, why, why is it so critical that at Xmas, the very young dc need to know where some of the presents come from and how?
I mean, we've never done large class parties, but 30 presents! The table groaning... Is it explained the the 5 year old that it's an exchange? We pay for the hall darling, so they bring a gift...

🙄.

It's a teeny tiny window of time of cultist belief. Magic.. Hope...

MinnieMountain · 02/10/2020 12:49

We're atheists. Father Christmas comes to our house because it's a fun part of the festival.

DS worked out he doesn't exist in January but he'll still have a stocking this year.

PP saying why don't atheists treat Christmas Day as a normal day? It's a cultural thing too. More of a winter festival.

AutumnleavesturntoGold · 02/10/2020 12:49

Cult of, fc

Miriel · 02/10/2020 12:50

@MillieEpple

i cant add anything intellectual - but we did magical Santa Christmas and with my NT child is was an easy transition to realising its a lovely story that we all act out and enjoy. With my autistic child there were more repercussions about 'being lied to by the whole of society'' and he struggles with transitions anyway and i think he wondered if everyone knew it wasn't real and it was just his own social understanding issues which made him think it was. i wish we hadn't gone down this road at all. The odd thing being that he was way more questioning of the logistics.

Just wanted to say that I was similar as a child (also autistic!). There were a few years where I knew it wasn't real but my parents were so invested in prolonging the 'magic' that they kept telling me I was wrong, using the media etc. as 'proof'.

It was very unsettling and did feel like a bizarre conspiracy. For that reason I'd go with it being a fun story we tell at Christmas - not true, but something it's nice to play pretend with. It's possible to have all the little rituals and activities without deceiving children.

AutumnleavesturntoGold · 02/10/2020 12:50

It's been noted for centuries before religion hijacked it.

It's the darkest point of the year.. It's just something to cheer most of us up!

To not feed DC the Father Christmas lie

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